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The future of ZacTax, software spies, and zipper merges

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ZacCast

In this episode of ZacCast, we talk about the future of ZacTax and our company, Eight20 Consulting. We also talk about software spying and why we wanted to remove third-party tracking software from ZacTax. And we wrap up with a discussion about the ever controversial "zipper merge."


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0:00 Chad
In this episode of ZacCast, some big announcements are made about the future of ZachTax, some shade is thrown at third-party software tracking, and we talk about the extremely efficient but ever-controversial zipper merge. This is ZacCast episode 10. Here we go.
0:29 Patrick
Hey guys, welcome to ZacCast. Uh, it's Patrick. Hey, Chad. How are you, man?
0:32 Chad
Pretty good, Pat. How you doing, buddy?
0:34 Patrick
I'm good, I'm good. I'm starting today's episode off, uh, I've got some big news in the world of Patrick. There's absolutely, uh, you know, a big change coming in my life. It's hit the papers. A lot of our clients have reached out to me and congratulated me on it, but, uh, like Chad did last year, uh, I have officially given my notice to Hudson Oaks, and I am moving full-time into ZachTax and, uh, our consulting firm, A20. So exciting news for everybody.
0:58 Chad
Yeah, welcome to the club. Not quite yet, but soon enough.
1:00 Patrick
Yeah, soon enough. March 6th is my last day at Hudson Oaks. Um, and real excited to get rolled out, super sad to leave them, but, uh, you know, it's- we've grown like a weed because our clients have, have allowed us to, and so it's, it's fun to be where we're at.
1:14 Chad
So when I, uh, was going through that transitionary period-
1:17 Patrick
Mm-hmm
1:17 Chad
... um, it w- it was really kind of surreal. Um, I was the first one to leave, so basically our whole staff was still intact.
1:24 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
1:24 Chad
Uh, you know, we all had the same roles that we had been in, so we were still fulfilling the same duties. Um, but certainly there were things that would come up that I knew were not gonna be addressed by the time I le- I left. Um, so kind of looking at those things and being like, "Man, that's gonna be fun for them to deal with."
1:42 Patrick
True.
1:42 Chad
That was, that was interesting.
1:43 Patrick
I, I think, um, I think it's a little different. It's almost surreal for me because I was always under the impression, they hammer it into you at grad school and your MPA, like, "You're gonna get fired. One of these days you'll get fired, and that's just a part of the business," right? And it's been surreal to me to leave, like-
2:00 Chad
On your own terms
2:00 Patrick
... on, on my own terms, you know. Um, you know, obviously I'm leaving without a, a severance, which is awesome for the city of Hudson Oaks. You know, look, we've, we've done some fantastic things together and, uh, I'm blessed to live here and be here. But it, it is, it is weird to be leaving, like, a great job. That is such a weird feeling. Um, but obviously I've been blessed with what we've been able to build with Zach, and the growth that we've had has been so prolific. It's, it's time to do it. But it's different because I, I think I'm probably gonna get called a lot, and there's gonna be, you know, a lot of things that I'm still, you know, trying to help with, just like you do today. I mean, you, you say that, but the reality is we probably call you once a week, right, about something.
2:43 Chad
Yeah, I still, I still have an unpaid consulting gig with the city of Hudson Oaks.
2:46 Patrick
Yeah, unpaid consulting gig. But I mean, that's the, that's kind of the love that we have for the community, right? Like, we've... It's such a different place. Our city council was, was so good to us as, like, employees. Um, and, and so, you know, I, I, I just have this, like, long-term care for them that's not gonna go away.
3:02 Chad
It's, it's a sign of a really solid culture when the people who leave still want to actively help.
3:08 Patrick
Yes.
3:08 Chad
Um, several of us who have left administration over the last few years are still, uh, involved. And when we're in town, we stop by and say hi.
3:16 Patrick
Yeah.
3:16 Chad
We help out on, on the events that, that the city hosts.
3:19 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
3:19 Chad
So yeah, I mean, it's definitely a sign that a solid culture has been built in that organization.
3:23 Patrick
I mean, even our, even a lot of our old city managers who've gone on to be city managers in other places, right, they still come back and hang out. You know, it's just kind of that, that culture, that office space that we've got and, and everything that's there. So I'm excited to, to get a, a new staff member hired and, uh, replace myself. That's-
3:39 Chad
Yeah, what's that like replacing yourself?
3:41 Patrick
You know, it's interesting. When, when I sat down with council and we kinda went through what that process was gonna look like, the, the level of v- involvement they gave me in that process was surprising. Um, but it's been fun. It's been fun to talk to a lot of people in career throughout the state and just tell them all of the things over the last 15 to 20 years that we've been able to do in Hudson Oaks, with not just myself or you, but the other managers that have been there as well. Sherry and Robert and, you know, some of the young professionals that have come through our organization have been just tremendous for us. And so, uh, it, it's different for sure to be replacing yourself. Uh, you're, you're basically telling people when you're having conversations with them and trying to recruit them to the position like, "Hey, we've done all these things, and I think they're all right. Like, I think, you know, you may have a different opinion, but I think what we did was a great thing, and I think it's gonna turn out to be pretty co- pretty cool."
4:34 Chad
Yeah, I mean, it's a good time too for the city. Um-
4:36 Patrick
Correct
4:36 Chad
... we, we accomplished quite a bit over the last five years. A lot of those things, uh, the, the work had been put in before that, obviously.
4:43 Patrick
Yeah.
4:43 Chad
It kinda came to fruition, um, over the last couple of years. Um, from a revenue standpoint, city appears to be in pretty good shape.
4:50 Patrick
Uh, absolutely.
4:52 Chad
Um, s- so much so that when I left, people thought that I was artificially holding down certain revenue numbers Because everything just hit at the same time right when I was leaving, and all that, all that revenue just exploded, so.
5:01 Patrick
Because the nickname's, uh, the nickname of Chad's office was no. That's what it was called.
5:05 Chad
Yes, my- I was the, uh-
5:06 Patrick
Yes
5:06 Chad
... the chief no officer.
5:07 Patrick
Yeah. As the assistant city manager, the job is always to be the bad guy, you know?
5:11 Chad
Yeah, the person with the-
5:12 Patrick
You don't get to deal with council as much, but you've gotta be the bad guy for everybody else, right? So, you know, you know, fairly exciting. We always called it the slingshot effect in Hudson Oaks. You know, we've been pulling that slingshot back for years and years and years. And yes, from a revenue standpoint, you know, we, we hit that, you know, slap, the slingshot finally hit. Revenue's up 20, 25% over the last couple of years. Uh, and so the city's in a position where they get to do a lot of fun stuff now, right? And so, uh, not that I'm not a fun manager, I am, right? Uh, but they're at the point now where a lot of theA lot of the economic development base has been put in place and is going to work. It's going to develop at this point. We know the market's there. Um, and it's, it's time for that next manager with a little different vision, and, and that's exciting for me to walk away and understand, like, it's my time to go. I'd, I'd love to sit down with some of the city managers that stayed in cities for 20 or 25 years and have those conversations in the future. I mean, you know, chatting with, like, the Sugar Land city manager who just left would be awesome. Uh, he prepared his organization very well for that, and, and I'm proud that in a small organization I've been able to do that in Hudson Oaks as well. So, um, pretty cool. Pretty cool to leave, but we got other big news as well.
6:20 Chad
Yeah, your departure comes at a, a, a very particular time for us because, uh... So later today, which will, uh, have already occurred by the time this is published, but, uh, we're hosting our first ever, uh, web conference.
6:31 Patrick
Yes.
6:32 Chad
So, um, right now, just as it- we kind of get it started, it's primarily focused on our actual user base. Um, the attendance registration is a lot-- exceeded my expectations, so.
6:43 Patrick
I mean, we were gonna be happy with, like-
6:45 Chad
10 people.
6:47 Patrick
So... And I don't know what our numbers are at now, but it's quite a bit.
6:50 Chad
Yeah.
6:50 Patrick
Yeah.
6:50 Chad
It's, it's a lot more than I was, than I was hoping for.
6:52 Patrick
Correct.
6:53 Chad
Um, so, you know, we are, uh-- we intend to kind of expand. Obviously, we've been podcasting now, we've been blogging for, for quite a bit. We're trying to expand, uh, just the, the reach that we have for, like, the, the audience-
7:05 Patrick
Mm-hmm
7:05 Chad
... you know, just the non-user base, right? Um, and not as an attempt to sort of convert people and sell people, but just to put knowledge out there and put information and, and spark conversations. Um, so I- I'm hoping that this may one day morph into something a little bit bigger, but, uh, the big thing that we're doing today is we are announcing and sort of officially releasing the next version of ZakTax.
7:27 Patrick
Absolutely.
7:28 Chad
So this is-
7:28 Patrick
It's a big update.
7:29 Chad
It, it, it's a pretty big update. Um, we started it pretty much when I rolled out. Uh, the, the biggest element is, uh, a bunch of back-end and infrastructure changes which don't really affect the front-end users or the actual implementation and-
7:42 Patrick
So let's talk about that real, real quick, like, before we get into, like, the nuts and bolts of the, of the new program, right, and what's there. We've had Zak out as a product for how long?
7:52 Chad
Probably about five years.
7:53 Patrick
And this is our third iteration.
7:55 Chad
Yeah, the third distinct iteration.
7:56 Patrick
That's correct. So I think that's important to note that when our clients tell us, like, "Hey, it would be cool to do this," or, "It would be cool to have this," those new features and the things, we are constantly writing that down. We're tracking it. We're thinking about it. And in our rebuilds, we're taking all those things into account, right? And so that's why-- I, I think it's so that people understand, who may have only been a Zak client for, you know, the last year, right? This is the third time. Some of our clients have been through all three-
8:25 Chad
Mm-hmm
8:25 Patrick
... at this point. But, um, we, we really depend on them to kind of give us that feedback.
8:30 Chad
Yeah, so I mean, we're not waiting for overhauls to add features, right?
8:33 Patrick
No, at all.
8:33 Chad
These are, these are sort of, uh, almost paradigm changes or, or technology changes. Um, this, uh, the new infrastructure that, that we're about to roll out, uh, is a lot more flexible, a lot more, uh, sort of battle-hardened for, for future growth. Um, there's a UI refresh. Uh, we've taken the opportunity to kind of look at some new technologies that, that will make the experience a little bit better and faster and quicker, um, a- and more stable, and give us the ability to add features as we go. Um-
9:03 Patrick
I'm gonna be honest, it flies. I mean, the s-
9:05 Chad
It's-
9:05 Patrick
The, the software itself flies.
9:07 Chad
It's a, it's a really cool thing and, and once we kind of get through it, um, I think we'll probably post, uh, something on the blog and kind of shout out to some of the people who built the tools that we're gonna be using.
9:16 Patrick
Yeah.
9:17 Chad
Um, really amazing, uh, s- stuff that's just going out there in the open source community right now, particularly in the, in the, the, the world where, you know, we build our software, the type of technologies that we use.
9:27 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
9:28 Chad
Um, that community is, is being really innovative, so very exciting.
9:31 Patrick
I mean, we, we, we're analyzing almost a billion dollars in sales tax data across the state of Texas, right, right now, and we're giving answers and delivering statistics in seconds to our clients. That's-
9:44 Chad
Yeah, like milliseconds.
9:45 Patrick
That's huge. I don't think when we built Zak the first time, we thought we-
9:48 Chad
It, it could never handle the scale that we're at
9:49 Patrick
... we could never handle the scale that we're at, right? And so to go from there to where what we're releasing today is, is just, I mean, it's a huge improvement, and a lot to be said for your programming skill development that has occurred over the time, 'cause that's also important to note, guys. We don't hire outside programmers. This is in-house programmed by us, by Chad mainly, and it, it just, you know, it's grown on its own, and so it's so organic in the way that we've, we've built it.
10:16 Chad
Yeah. Which also means that your, you know, your data is secure, because-
10:19 Patrick
It's never touched by anybody else
10:20 Chad
... you know, we're the ones who are, who are, uh, uh, handling it and securing it. Um, th- there's a lot of, a lot of the back-end infrastructure that we have added is to actually increase the security-
10:30 Patrick
Mm-hmm
10:30 Chad
... of your data, um, to make sure that it's protected, um, because for the sales tax stuff, it's confidential. So we definitely wanna make sure that it's taken care of, um, and isolated from, from other users. So, um, a lot of really cool changes. Many of those changes are for future growth. They don't necessarily-- They're not something that the users are gonna see. Um, but we got-
10:48 Patrick
Not, not right now.
10:49 Chad
But we got a fe- a, a full UI refresh, um, with a lot of cool new features. I'm really excited to, to kind of roll that out. We've already started to demo some new potential clients-
10:59 Patrick
Uh-huh
10:59 Chad
... uh, on the new system. Um, feedback's been great. We've had a lot of help from some of our existing clients a- as we developed it. Um-
11:06 Patrick
Yeah. Huge shout-out to those existing clients who beta tested for us.
11:09 Chad
Yes, thank you very much.
11:09 Patrick
'Cause almost when it goes into beta, it's usually a little uglier than it finishes for sure, so we appreciate that.
11:15 Chad
Um, so right now, obviously, we're primarily focused on sales tax.
11:20 Patrick
Correct.
11:20 Chad
Um, if you look at our, our marketing site, you can s- see that we've got a vision for, for future growth. Um, a lot of these changes are allowing us to expand into those areas, one of which is hotel taxes.
11:32 Patrick
It's a big area of expansion for us. It's, it's been in Santa's workshop for some time, and so-
11:36 Chad
Yeah, it's sort of in the, in the mental queue, kind of stewing and, and-
11:40 Patrick
Yes
11:40 Chad
... and growing. Um, we've built some prototypes over the last few months of what this is gonna look like, but, um-As we talked more and more with our, our clients and with other people who, um, use their hotel tax data and trying to find ways to analyze it, we decided to do something kind of interesting with hotel taxes.
11:59 Patrick
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think when Chad and I started thinking about this, we... One, we've built kind of a couple different prototypes in actual code base in, in, in a UI, and then we tore it apart. We're like, "Ah, we don't really like that. We don't like the way it works." So then we really got to talking with some of our clients, and we got talking internally with our Zak team, and we're gonna do something totally different than what we've done before when we build hotels, which is we're gonna build it in the open. So as we're building it, our clients are going to use it for free.
12:31 Chad
Yes.
12:31 Patrick
Right?
12:32 Chad
So there's no, like, behind the scenes developing, beta testing, al- you know, alpha testing, beta testing, anything.
12:38 Patrick
Correct.
12:38 Chad
As soon as we get the most minimally viable front screen where you can search through some s- some hotel tax data-
12:45 Patrick
Mm-hmm
12:45 Chad
... it's gonna be included in Zak.
12:47 Patrick
Correct.
12:47 Chad
And our users are gonna be able to see it for free and offer s- uh, suggestions and make changes and help us build the product to suit their needs.
12:54 Patrick
Right. It's not gonna be free forever. We wanna be clear about that. Like, we're, we're investing in this, so we'll have to charge for it at some point. But we believe that n- we have been able to build a great sales tax product because of what our clients have given to us about that information. And so by building this in open and providing it while we're building it at no charge, we're, we're hopeful that our clients will give us that feedback on this as well as we build so that we can build the best possible, uh, product, uh, for our cities.
13:21 Chad
So one of the other things we're doing is, um, we're removing any kind of third-party tracking.
13:27 Patrick
Yes.
13:27 Chad
Uh, and right now the, the only thing that we do in, um, in Zak Tax, like the actual application, is our customer support chatting.
13:35 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
13:36 Chad
Um, we've already removed Google Analytics from the, from the marketing site. Uh, we use a new service that tracks very minimal amount of information and keeps no identifiable records. So it's really just tracking what pages that people go to.
13:48 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
13:48 Chad
That's basically it. Um, but with the new system, we are taking out any third-party libraries that will, that require your user information. So our chat software basically takes your email address so that we know what user we're chatting with.
14:01 Patrick
Yes.
14:01 Chad
Um, so it's already pretty minimal, but there has been a lot of news come out lately-
14:07 Patrick
Mm-hmm
14:07 Chad
... about the use of these third-party tracking and how that information is used. Um, we saw an article the other day about Avast.
14:14 Patrick
Ava- which is a, which is an antivirus software-
14:17 Chad
Right
14:17 Patrick
... that people, people get, yeah.
14:18 Chad
And so basically, uh, the, the interesting thing about this is they were... You, you install, um, a browser extension-
14:26 Patrick
Mm-hmm
14:26 Chad
... that is supposedly helping to keep you off of, uh, compromised websites or malicious websites. And as a result, it's tracking not only what pages you visit, but where your mouse is hovering, where it's clicking.
14:38 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
14:38 Chad
Uh, you know, all the, all that information, and they're hoarding all this information. Then they had this subsidiary called, I think, JumpStart or-
14:46 Patrick
It was Jump something.
14:47 Chad
Jumpshot.
14:48 Patrick
Jumpshot. Jumpshot.
14:49 Chad
So they had this subsidiary-
14:50 Patrick
Mm-hmm
14:51 Chad
... that was selling this information-
14:52 Patrick
Making lots of money
14:53 Chad
... lot, like millions and millions of dollars-
14:56 Patrick
Correct, yes
14:56 Chad
... to... A- and what they, their, uh, marketing thing was, like, every click, every site, every user, right? They had hundreds of millions of people using this.
15:03 Patrick
The worst part about this is before they got caught, they have a free software and they have a paid software, right? Before they got caught, they were actually selling it on their user data from people who were paying for their services, right? So you would go in and you would pay for their service, and they didn't notify you of it, but they were selling that-
15:21 Chad
Well, I'm sure it was buried somewhere in a-
15:22 Patrick
It was-
15:22 Chad
... 5,000-line type of service
15:23 Patrick
... well, the article, the article kind of went into that a little bit. Like, all of a sudden, on the free site, there's now a disclosure that wasn't there before, right? Before they started asking questions, it wasn't there, and now it's there. So now they've gotten rid of it on the, on the paid site ap- supposedly, right? And it's just on the free version of the software. Uh, you know, look, I mean, everybody assumes that if you're doing something for free or you're not paying for something, that there's gonna be some tracking. They're making money somewhere, right?
15:49 Chad
Yeah, you're basically, you're the product.
15:50 Patrick
You are the product, and that's kind of assum- You know, everybody knows that that's the assumption today. But man, it's an antivirus software, and I think that's why it's shocking 'cause it... And, and then the scary thing about it is, is that there really was a way to connect identifiable data of that user. If you really wanted to dig into it, put the pieces together, you could figure out who they were.
16:11 Chad
Yeah, 'cause let's talk about who's, who's buying this data. So let's say a major brand is interested to know if, uh, an ad campaign is generating clicks to their website.
16:23 Patrick
Correct, yeah.
16:24 Chad
These brands have, uh, they have tracking of, you know, visits to their website down to the millisecond timestamp. They're buying this data from Jumpshot that includes the exact same timestamps and the exact same, uh, traversal of their webpage.
16:38 Patrick
Correct.
16:38 Chad
Which they could easily just match to their data and figure out who's who.
16:43 Patrick
Yes.
16:43 Chad
Right? Like, it's de-anonymi- or it's anonymized, but, uh, you can only an- anonymize data at that level of granularity so much. It's, it's not impossible to, to tie it back to, uh, an, an actual user that that person's aware of.
16:59 Patrick
No, especially when you're talking in the world of, like, big technology where, you know, the data connections are not that difficult to make anymore.
17:06 Chad
Think of, think about this. Uh, Facebook... I actually, I was just listening to, uh, to a, a podcast this morning on the way in here.
17:12 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
17:13 Chad
And, uh, Facebook has a service where even if you don't have an account, you can send them a request to get access to all the data they have about you. How do they know that it's about you if you don't have an account?
17:24 Patrick
You don't have an account, but they know it's you.
17:25 Chad
We talked about their shadow profa- profiles before, right?
17:28 Patrick
Correct, yeah.
17:29 Chad
So yeah, it's, it's... The, the veil of anonymity that we think we have is, is not anywhere near as, as strong.
17:36 Patrick
Absolutely. So that all being said, when we built Zak 3, we, we took a very strong stance that we were gonna take any third-party service that we used within our software platforms, and we were gonna try to minimize that as much as possible so that that, so that data was not being tracked by anybody.
17:51 Chad
Right. So the only third-party service that we use now, um, is, uh, is Google Maps-
17:56 Patrick
Mm-hmm
17:56 Chad
... but there's no identifiable information that's getting sent to them.
17:59 Patrick
Correct.
17:59 Chad
Um, it's just a mapping service, so.
18:01 Patrick
And that's just working on that KMZ platform, and so that things run faster than it would be on, like, an Esri platform.
18:07 Chad
Yeah.
18:07 Patrick
Yeah.
18:07 Chad
And less, less clunky.
18:09 Patrick
Less-
18:09 Chad
Less clunky general-
18:10 Patrick
Less clunky, yeah. Uh, when you're, when you're analyzing a billion dollars in data in all those different data sources, it's very difficult to run that on Esri.
18:17 Chad
It's amazing, though, how many, uh, how many stories recently have come out about all this tracking. Like, I saw a thing, I think I just sent it to you yesterday, about Ring.
18:26 Patrick
Yes.
18:27 Chad
Um, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, EFF, I'm not sure if that's the right acronym. I know that's, those are right letters. I'm not sure if that's what it stands for. But, um, they just posted an expose about the Ring Android app, uh, where they kinda did a bunch of hacking to, to expose the actual encrypted traffic that's being sent. I mean, they're sending application events to Facebook's Graph API.
18:50 Patrick
Notice it was through the Android app.
18:53 Chad
I mean, it's possible that they could be doing the same thing for, uh, in their iOS app, but-
18:57 Patrick
It is, it is, it is entirely possible, but that is... That app environment is so much more closed off and controlled, right? So it's a little... I'm not saying it's safer. It's just different. So, uh, it's important to point out.
19:09 Chad
Yeah. But now s- uh, in this particular article, there, there were some of the services that are legitimate, right? They're, they're-
19:16 Patrick
Correct
19:16 Chad
... tracking how the application is being used so they can determine if they need to make tweaks to interface or, um, you know, functionality. But-
19:23 Patrick
Well, I mean, tracking rage clicks, which is something that we track, right? You wanna track rage clicks because you wanna know, like, are people getting frustrated because they can't get to a link on your site, right?
19:34 Chad
Right.
19:35 Patrick
That, that's super helpful for us.
19:35 Chad
And they can't figure out where they're going, and they just start bashing on the, on the mouse, right?
19:38 Patrick
Correct, yeah. So, I mean, there, there are little things like that that you, you need to track so that the software actual user interface is better at, at the end of the day, so.
19:47 Chad
But it, it... For what purpose could they have to send, uh, an email address, a device ID, and application events to Facebook?
19:57 Patrick
There is no purpose for that.
19:59 Chad
Like, this person downloaded the app. They ins- they opened the app. The app went inactive because the screen, you know, turned off after a certain amount of time.
20:06 Patrick
Uh-huh.
20:07 Chad
Like, what value would, would you get from sending that to Facebook? I, I, I just cannot understand.
20:13 Patrick
Well, I mean, just think, just think with Facebook and with Google, the single sign-on that is basically everywhere now, right? I mean, there's a lot of data collection that occurs on that. And, and I'm, I'm a big user of it 'cause it's just so much easier to use my single sign-on for, for my Gmail accounts. But obviously that's another way that they're gonna track your data, especially Facebook. I mean, they're, they're a master at it. There's plenty of articles out there for people to read on that one.
20:38 Chad
Yeah. So we're definitely trying to reduce reliance on third-party services. We wanna make sure that not only is your confidential data secure, but also your user data is, is secure and-
20:47 Patrick
Yes, absolutely
20:47 Chad
... and isolated. So, so that's gonna be Zach 3. Um, like I said, we're officially showing it to our clients today, um-
20:56 Patrick
Big announcements
20:57 Chad
... starting to-
20:57 Patrick
On full-time Zach, March 6th. Fantastic news. And Zach 3 is, the official announcement is today at ZachConf. So super excited about what we've got moving, moving forward, for sure.
21:08 Chad
So since we have a f- a little bit more time, Pat, let me, let me ask you something. Is there anything that you know to be true in your heart of hearts that other people just refuse to believe? Let me give you an example in my life, okay?
21:25 Patrick
Okay. All right.
21:25 Chad
We've had this debate before because I actually got in trouble when I was in Hudson Oaks. I don't understand... I do understand it logically. I don't-
21:33 Patrick
Oh, my gracious. Is this gonna be a zipper merge discussion?
21:35 Chad
Yes.
21:36 Patrick
Okay. Let's go.
21:38 Chad
I don't understand why people can't r- remove emotion and just accept that the zipper merge is the most efficient way to merge traffic.
21:47 Patrick
Because, Sheldon, not everybody has that special power in their mindset to be logical at all times.
21:53 Chad
It's, but it's not even about all times. Um, like, I understand-
21:56 Patrick
No, you're logical, like, 95% of the time, right? Like, everything is a logic conversation with you.
22:02 Chad
Except for sports.
22:03 Patrick
Correct. And then you're totally illogical. It doesn't matter what Texas does, they're the greatest team on Earth.
22:06 Chad
Or, or Dallas.
22:07 Patrick
Or Dallas. It's-
22:08 Chad
I, I've been a lot better with the Cowboys because they've just been so mediocre, I just accept it.
22:13 Patrick
It, it-
22:13 Chad
Like, I just know that they're gonna be terrible or-
22:14 Patrick
Well, you're that way with the Rangers too.
22:16 Chad
Yeah, but we had, I mean, we had more recent success.
22:20 Patrick
I mean, it is what it is.
22:21 Chad
The Cowboys only won two s- two playoff games in the last, like, 30 years, so.
22:24 Patrick
This tells, this tells you how polar opposite... So, so, so Chad, you are a Rangers fan-
22:28 Chad
Mm-hmm
22:29 Patrick
... a Cowboys fan, and a Texas Longhorn.
22:31 Chad
Yes.
22:32 Patrick
Right? Okay. I am an Aggie, an Astros fan, and a Texans fan.
22:37 Chad
So, so I was born in Houston.
22:39 Patrick
Uh-huh.
22:40 Chad
Most of my dad's family lives in Houston. Um, I grew up an Astros fan.
22:45 Patrick
It's sad that you're still not one.
22:47 Chad
I don't hate the Astros.
22:48 Patrick
I'm knocking on my trash can right now.
22:50 Chad
Yeah.
22:50 Patrick
Trying to bring you back.
22:51 Chad
We'll talk about that later. I, I don't hate the Astros, but when I moved up here, I started to follow the Rangers. Uh, you know, I was going to games a lot. Um, I mean, I used to go to... When I lived in Austin, I would go to Texas games.
23:02 Patrick
Yeah.
23:02 Chad
I didn't go to H- to Astros games very often 'cause Houston is not terribly close to Austin. Um, especially when you're, you know, growing up, you can't just decide that I'm gonna drive myself to Houston-
23:11 Patrick
Correct
23:11 Chad
... at, at 13. So, um, so I moved up to the Dallas-Fort Worth area. I started following the Rangers. They were in the American League. Astros are National League. It's wonderful. My hope was that they'd play each other in the World Series. Um, in 2005, when the Astros were in the World Series, like, I was a huge Astros supporter.
23:29 Patrick
Correct.
23:29 Chad
Okay. But over time, you know, I, I grew to love both teams. And then when the Astros made the move to the, to the, not only just to the AL, but to the same division-
23:37 Patrick
To the AL-
23:38 Chad
AL West
23:39 Patrick
... West, yeah.
23:40 Chad
I had to make a choice. I couldn't support two teams in the same division, so I chose the Rangers.
23:44 Patrick
So you went with the, well, you went with the better team, which basically means you're a bandwagon fan.
23:47 Chad
No. I, I went with the Ra-
23:48 Patrick
The Astros were terrible at that time.
23:50 Chad
I went with...
23:51 Patrick
The Astros were still in the National League
23:53 Chad
When the Rangers were in the World Series
23:54 Patrick
Jim Crane became the owner, brought them to the American League, and then absolutely devastated the team.
23:59 Chad
Stole Nolan Ryan.
23:59 Patrick
Stole Nolan Ryan. But just took every pl- I mean, just demolished the current roster of the Astros. So they were not good for a couple of years because of that.
24:07 Chad
But that, that had nothing to do with my calculation. My-
24:10 Patrick
Sure.
24:11 Chad
I, I, I live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area now.
24:13 Patrick
I gotcha. Okay.
24:13 Chad
So that's my team.
24:14 Patrick
So do I.
24:15 Chad
Now, um, I used to be an Oilers fan-
24:17 Patrick
Uh-huh
24:18 Chad
... when I was... when they were in Houston, obviously.
24:19 Patrick
So do you sorta kinda root for, for Tennessee even though it had an Aggie quarterback this year? Did that hurt you that Ryan Tannehill was throwing the ball?
24:27 Chad
Like six times a game?
24:28 Patrick
Yes.
24:28 Chad
No. It didn't, didn't hurt me. There's a reason why Ryan Tannehill was throwing the ball like six or nine times in the playoffs.
24:33 Patrick
That's a good point.
24:34 Chad
Uh, no, uh, it did not hurt me. Um, I, I was never a Cowboys fan growing up-
24:39 Patrick
Who-
24:39 Chad
... particularly because they were winning championships and everyone was becoming a Cowboys fan-
24:44 Patrick
True
24:44 Chad
... and I didn't wanna jump on that bandwagon.
24:45 Patrick
We've really diverged from zipper merge, by the way.
24:48 Chad
Yeah, I don't even know how we got onto this.
24:49 Patrick
That's right. Yeah. We went down, we went down the road of sports.
24:52 Chad
Uh, but anyway, um, so when I moved up here, uh, just the proximity and, and being around the Cowboys, I just became a Cowboys fan too, so.
25:01 Patrick
Okay.
25:01 Chad
Um, it's geographic, it's not bandwagon. But anyway, all that to say, um... God, how did we even get onto that topic? This will be an interesting one to re-listen and, and kinda figure out how we diverged.
25:15 Patrick
Yeah.
25:15 Chad
Uh, zipper merges. When you look at, uh-
25:19 Patrick
So can we tell the story about what Chad did as an assistant city manager in Hudson Oaks with zipper merge?
25:23 Chad
Yeah. Okay. So there's some-
25:23 Patrick
Okay
25:23 Chad
... construction, some road construction going on just outside of Hudson Oaks.
25:27 Patrick
Yes, in an intersection that is heavily traveled.
25:31 Chad
Yes.
25:31 Patrick
Yes.
25:32 Chad
Uh, and-
25:33 Patrick
Still under construction, by the way, almost two years later
25:36 Chad
... #TxDOT.
25:38 Patrick
Love you guys.
25:39 Chad
So anyway, um, uh, where the traffic would merge on the frontage road to a, uh, a four-way frontage road intersection-
25:47 Patrick
Mm-hmm
25:48 Chad
... which TxDOT's trying to do away with.
25:50 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
25:50 Chad
Um, it's gonna affect me at my house pretty soon, and it's kinda frustrating, but it is what it is. Um, people would not merge at the last minute, so traffic would back up all the way onto the highway. And this happens all over the place.
26:02 Patrick
Correct.
26:02 Chad
There's a, there's a, uh, a particular zipper merge location right at a major shopping center n- near my house, and traffic will always not only back up into the highway, but, uh, there's a quick, like a, an early turn into the shopping center that you can never get into because people are waiting to go through the intersection.
26:21 Patrick
Correct.
26:21 Chad
And if people would use the full amount of queue available-
26:24 Patrick
Mm-hmm
26:24 Chad
... then it wouldn't, A, back up into the highway, which is terribly dangerous, and two, people could actually use that turn lane and remove people from the queue.
26:33 Patrick
So before we get into exactly what Chad did, let's explain that the zipper merge is a proven method for traffic control and to move vehicles at a faster rate than what is done now, where everybody tries to merge at the back of the line-
26:47 Chad
As soon as they see-
26:48 Patrick
... because they feel bad for cutting
26:49 Chad
... as soon as they see the, the lane closed ahead-
26:51 Patrick
Just-
26:51 Chad
... they move over im- I used to be, I used to be that guy.
26:53 Patrick
Texas... Yes, exactly. Texas Transportation Institute, right, has come out, done studies on this. Everybody knows this is the better path to do it, right? It's the more logical approach. So the, the Chad reaction to this, uh, or more, more likely when Sheldon Cooper tries to tell the world how they are not living correctly, uh, approach is let's post on the city Facebook page an example of merging and tell them they should use it more wisely.
27:22 Chad
My comment was- ... hey, every, everyone hates traffic, but if you zipper merge, you can at least make it a little bit better.
27:30 Patrick
Gotcha. Okay.
27:31 Chad
To which many people, uh, were grateful and offered thanks, and, "Yes, I agree with this. This is great."
27:39 Patrick
How about the other 80%?
27:41 Chad
No, there was like one comment that was negative. And then there was you.
27:45 Patrick
I love, I love how you, like, have replayed history in your mind-
27:48 Chad
I have screenshots
27:49 Patrick
... that you only had one negative comment.
27:52 Chad
I have screenshots to prove it. But-
27:53 Patrick
The, the amount of text messages that I got on that post alone were amazing.
27:57 Chad
You weren't even there, were you?
27:58 Patrick
No, I was out of town.
27:59 Chad
Yeah. So I get a text-
28:00 Patrick
I believe I had to call, and I... Probably for the first time ever, I, I don't think I ever told you you had to do something.
28:07 Chad
That was the only time. It was like-
28:07 Patrick
That was the on- That was the only time in, in us working together for forever, right, that I had to say, "Chad, take it down." "Okay, I'll take it down." But I've never had to do that before.
28:18 Chad
No, but if you go... I, so I don't use Facebook really at all anymore.
28:21 Patrick
Wow.
28:21 Chad
But if you go and look at my account, the profile picture is a zipper Because of this incident.
28:27 Patrick
So to, to be, uh, to be fair, I think every city manager out there or assistant city manager, anybody in management, you've always wanted to respond on social media. I've probably tried to respond maybe 15 or 20 times on social media, where I write something, and then I'm like, "It's probably better if I just leave that alone," and I just delete it, right? And then I'm always fearful that I accidentally posted it, so I go back and look at it like four or five times, right? That happens to everybody. Uh, this time Chad just actually posted it. He went out-
28:54 Chad
It was a public, it was a public service announcement.
28:56 Patrick
Sure it was.
28:57 Chad
The thing is, though, I used to be the guy who would get over early-
29:00 Patrick
He was mansplaining to the world. That's a, that's a throwback term
29:03 Chad
... traffic, trafficsplaining.
29:04 Patrick
Trafficsplaining, yes.
29:05 Chad
But I would get over early, and then I would be the guy who, like, sits in the middle of the two lanes to try to keep people from going around you. And if they would try, I would, like, scoot over a little bit more. You know, I just... I fully understand the emotional response. We have this sort of ingrained in, in our culture that, uh, cheating is bad, uh, that, you know, basically trying to go till the very end is like, is just cutting, right?
29:29 Patrick
Correct, yes.
29:29 Chad
And, and there's like this emotional response to it. But if we would all just work together and realize that this is more efficient, then everybody would get where they're going faster.
29:39 Patrick
The humor in that statement, "we all just work together," is that you're sitting in front of me on a chair with your legs crossed, and you threw your arms out to the side.
29:47 Chad
Let's w-
29:47 Patrick
Right? Let's just all-
29:47 Chad
Can't we all-
29:48 Patrick
... work together
29:49 Chad
... can't we all just get along?
29:50 Patrick
Yeah, and let's go go... Let's do yoga now and make ourselves feel better about it.
29:54 Chad
That's why I do kinda look like I'm meditating here, right?
29:56 Patrick
You do. You look like you're meditating at the moment, yes. So I, I, I understand that some people feel like that's the logical truth, right?
30:04 Chad
It's not about some people feel like. It is the logical truth.
30:07 Patrick
You're, you're correct, yes. Uh, I apologize for the misstatement. But sometimes things are better unsaid.
30:13 Chad
If y- if you try to zip up your pants by putting the top tongs that are away, or whatever they're called, away from the zipper, the actual zipper m- mechanism, try to zip those first and see how efficient it is.
30:28 Patrick
And folks, I think we're gonna end our episode on that one. Uh, once again, hey guys, thanks for, uh, tuning in to ZacCast. We're excited for this episode obviously 'cause we had a lot of great announcements, uh, and we got to chat about a lot of goofy things that Chad believes are true. So anyways, we will catch you guys next time.
30:54 Chad
That about does it for episode 10. Show notes at ZacCast.com/10. If you listen to us on ZacCast.com, we are really appreciative, but it would be awesome if you would subscribe to our feed on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you like what you hear, a five-star review would be extra appreciated. Thanks again. We'll see you next time.
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February 10th, 2020
Updated Oct 27, 2025
31:21
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