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0:09 Chad
Hey, everyone. Welcome to ZacCast. This is Chad Janicek here with my buddy, Patrick Lawler. Pat-
0:14 Patrick
What's up, guys? How are y'all?
0:16 Chad
We are actually live. Well, not live. This is recorded, but-
0:20 Patrick
Yes, correct
0:20 Chad
... we're in Galveston, Texas for the Safe-D Conference.
0:23 Patrick
Safety.
0:24 Chad
Safe, hyphen, D.
0:26 Patrick
Hyphen D. Absolutely, yes.
0:27 Chad
So we're actually sitting in a hotel room right now with some rather intimate lighting.
0:32 Patrick
So we're, uh, we are, we are sitting in a hotel room with some intimate lighting. It's very interesting. But also, uh, we, we are a bit fish out of water at this conference.
0:40 Chad
Yeah.
0:41 Patrick
It is, it is very interesting. We are city managers at a conference full of fire chiefs and fire departments.
0:48 Chad
Yeah, so this is an ESD conference.
0:50 Patrick
Emergency services district-
0:51 Chad
Exactly
0:51 Patrick
... for those folks who don't know what that means.
0:52 Chad
Yeah. Most of the time, uh, our interactions are with finance directors, with city managers, with economic development professionals.
0:58 Patrick
Yes.
0:59 Chad
Don't have a whole lot of interaction, um, from a ZacTax standpoint with the fire services.
1:05 Patrick
I mean, for 15 to 20 years, we had lots of interactions-
1:08 Chad
Of course
1:08 Patrick
... with fire departments. It was just-
1:09 Chad
As city managers
1:10 Patrick
... we want new fire trucks, and we want lots of staffing, and we want, you know, all those fun things, and now we're hanging out with our fire buddies trying to figure out how to make their revenue a little better. So it's, uh, you know, it's, it's a very interesting dynamic, for sure.
1:23 Chad
What I found most interesting is that the concerns they have is so much different from city managers.
1:28 Patrick
Yeah, absolutely.
1:28 Chad
A lot of these ESDs are, um, either overlapping with cities or other special districts, so they may not even get their full local tax rate, um, across the, their entire boundary, uh, or they're competing with other districts. Um, they've, they don't have the same traditional retail because a lot of them are in the unincorporated areas of their counties.
1:48 Patrick
Yes.
1:48 Chad
Um, so they're dealing with different types of sales tax, and, and a lot of them are just new to sales tax.
1:54 Patrick
Well, I mean, they're very new. I mean, that's the thing that we found is, you know, you, you've got all these ESDs. There's not a ton of them, maybe 100 ESDs or so that are charging sales tax right now, and a lot of them are new. Like, "Hey, we just started in June." We got, we got that a lot, right? Um, but it's-
2:08 Chad
Or, "We're currently trying to get an election in May."
2:11 Patrick
Yeah.
2:11 Chad
For sales tax.
2:11 Patrick
"We're gonna have an election in May, so we kinda wanna know how much sales tax is gonna be out there." I mean, it's, it's really interesting to have the conversations with them because they're, they're, I mean, like, their top five taxpayers for a lot of them, Amazon's, like, one or two for home delivery. You know what I mean? So it's just a really different animal than what we're used to from that standpoint, and, and the users that are generating a lot of sales tax for them are very different from our city clients.
2:33 Chad
Yeah, yeah.
2:34 Patrick
So.
2:34 Chad
And I mean, obviously, an ESD is not gonna be focused on development and growth of their sales tax base. They're kind of, um... It's l- we talked a lot about, or when we have worked with, um, transit authorities, it's kinda similar. They don't have a ton of interaction in the actual economic development, uh, so they're kind of at the whim of whatever the city is doing from a development standpoint.
2:53 Patrick
I mean, they're, th- the reality is, is from a tax rate standpoint, they're, like, fighting for scraps, right? Like, a city gets out there, they get their percent and a half or their 2%. The transit district comes in there and gets a half a percent. And these ESDs are overlapping sales tax in all these areas that may have been, like, these donut holes that had, like, a quarter cent left, right? And so they're just collecting these overlapping taxes, so their tax files are not all a percent and a half. They may be collecting a quarter percent from one user and a half a percent from another, and it's just a real different hodgepodge of, of taxation-
3:23 Chad
Yeah
3:24 Patrick
... uh, from that standpoint. So it's, it's just, it's, it's interesting.
3:26 Chad
Yeah.
3:26 Patrick
It's different for us.
3:27 Chad
Yeah, definitely. New to us.
3:28 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
3:28 Chad
Really eye-opening to just talk about different aspects of sales tax that we don't really deal with on a daily, daily basis.
3:34 Patrick
Yeah, absolutely.
3:35 Chad
So, so, but speaking of things we don't deal with on a daily basis, uh, this is not a, uh, a regular podcast. You know, we do every couple weeks. So sometimes current events pass us, and we don't get a chance to talk about them while they're in the news cycle.
3:47 Patrick
Oh, we're gonna talk about the Iowa Caucus?
3:49 Chad
Yeah.
3:49 Patrick
So excited about this.
3:50 Chad
So you are probably familiar, if you're listening to this, with the Iowa Caucuses, which happened, what, a couple weeks ago now?
3:56 Patrick
Yes. We're not gonna get political. Let's, let's just be clear. We're not picking a candidate. We're not picking sides. We just wanna talk about the technology associated with the Iowa Caucus.
4:03 Chad
Yeah. So the Iowa Caucus on the Democratic side, 'cause that's really where the only primary caucus was-
4:09 Patrick
Yes
4:09 Chad
... um, was a total disaster.
4:11 Patrick
It was horrible.
4:12 Chad
And a lot of it stemmed from, uh, both some rule changes that they implemented after 2016, but primarily because they contracted, the Democratic Party of Iowa contracted with a company to build an app to help them manage their caucus.
4:27 Patrick
Can you imagine the money behind that app? What do you think that cost?
4:31 Chad
Uh, I'm sure a ton. I-
4:32 Patrick
A lot
4:32 Chad
... from what I understand, th- they were, they were building a caucus app that could be used in other places. They were actually gonna use it in Nevada, which I think is next week.
4:40 Patrick
Not anymore.
4:40 Chad
Not anymore.
4:41 Patrick
Yeah.
4:41 Chad
Um, the company, I think, is Shadow, Inc., or something. Like, that's not really who I want to- ... to build my-
4:48 Patrick
"Hey, we're gonna have a pol- we're gonna have a political election, and we're gonna contract with a company called Shadow, Inc."
4:53 Chad
I mean, just from an optics standpoint, that's interesting. But-
4:56 Patrick
Br- branding 101, folks. Let's, let's try not to do that.
4:58 Chad
But the bottom line is the app that they built was a total train wreck. Um, the people they were building it for didn't know how to use it. They actually had trouble getting it on the App Store so that they could download it, so they had to go through this process to sideload it on-
5:14 Patrick
Were they just on Apple, or were they on, were they on Google as well?
5:17 Chad
I don't know, but I-
5:18 Patrick
Okay
5:18 Chad
... I'm, I'm pretty confident that it was, like, iPads.
5:21 Patrick
Okay.
5:21 Chad
Um, because the way that they were sideloading it was through Apple's developer, like, enterprise account.
5:25 Patrick
Okay.
5:26 Chad
And, um, it's just a different process. Like, you don't go to the App Store to download it.
5:30 Patrick
So, so I, I think that's important to understand, 'cause not everybody's developed apps like we have in the past, you know, failed at them occasionally as well, yes. So, but when you develop an app, you can have an app developer account, which allows you to download an application without putting it into the App Store, uh, so that you can, you know, really beta test it. You can take it for a drive, right, with multiple different users in that way.
5:52 Chad
Yeah.
5:52 Patrick
And Google Store works a lot differently than the Apple Store.
5:56 Chad
I, I have absolutely zero experience with Google's, um, ecosystem.
6:00 Patrick
Yeah.
6:00 Chad
But I can-
6:00 Patrick
It's a lot more open.
6:01 Chad
But I-
6:01 Patrick
I mean, their system itself is a lot more open.
6:03 Chad
I can tell you that, so Apple recently purchased this app called TestFlight, which is what, uh, we used-
6:09 Patrick
Yeah, we used it
6:09 Chad
... way back in the day-
6:10 Patrick
I remember it. Yeah, absolutely
6:10 Chad
... to, uh, to... to push development builds for beta testers.
6:15 Patrick
I didn't realize Apple bought it.
6:16 Chad
Oh, yeah.
6:16 Patrick
Oh, okay. Well.
6:17 Chad
But Apple also has an enterprise program where you can build internal apps. Like, there was a huge kerfuffle a few years ago because Facebook had all these internal apps.
6:25 Patrick
Kerfuffle?
6:26 Chad
Yes.
6:26 Patrick
Okay.
6:27 Chad
Uh, yeah.
6:28 Patrick
Some big words.
6:29 Chad
So, so Facebook has all these internal apps. They have one for, like, shuttles. They have one for their, their cafeteria menus and things like that. And Facebook kinda went afoul of Apple's policies, and Apple actually shut down all their internal apps. So one day, all these Facebookers go to work, and their app for determining what's on the cafeteria menu doesn't work anymore, right? So, um, all that to say that there is a process to, to install, like, internal enterprise apps or development apps for testers.
6:59 Patrick
Okay.
6:59 Chad
And but it's different than the App Store. You don't go to the App Store and download it like a normal app. And because this Caucus app was not able to get through the review process, they opted for this sort of enterprise-y distribution method, which the users of the app couldn't figure out, couldn't get it installed. Um, s- the ones that did, uh, they had issues with logging in because the pins that they were given expired, and so when they got to the actual caucus, their logins weren't working anymore.
7:27 Patrick
This is, this is an utter disaster.
7:29 Chad
Yeah. And so-
7:29 Patrick
From a company called Shadow, Inc.
7:31 Chad
So the, the overall point that I think we'd like to make is technology is great. Obviously, we're a software company.
7:39 Patrick
Absolutely, yes.
7:39 Chad
You know, we fully support using technology when it's appropriate.
7:42 Patrick
But too much is too much.
7:43 Chad
You have to know your limits.
7:45 Patrick
Yes.
7:45 Chad
Like, what is the appropriate amount of technology to accomplish the task that you're trying to accomplish?
7:50 Patrick
Well, I just think it's interesting to talk about elections in general. So, you know, where... So in the state of Texas, for example, you know, a lot of folks at the county level have gone from electronic machines that didn't have a paper record, like the little turn wheels that we used to have where you would, like, click enter and it would go in. Most of the counties have gone away from that, and they've gone to actually a paper ballot that prints at the end of the electronic. So you go in, you make your selections. It gives you a piece of paper on, like, a Scantron-looking form. And I, I'm not talking, like, normal test Scantron, but, like, your TAAS test Scantron, right? And so-
8:22 Chad
That really dates you-
8:22 Patrick
That really dates me, yeah
8:23 Chad
... 'cause it's not called TAAS anymore.
8:24 Patrick
It, it, it-
8:24 Chad
It's called, like, TACS or something now
8:25 Patrick
... TACS. I think it's TACS now, yeah. Or STAR, no, it's STAAR test now. Yeah.
8:29 Chad
Uh, your wife's an ed-
8:30 Patrick
We'll have to bring Jennifer on the... My wife's an educator. We'd have to bring Jennifer on the podcast to have that conversation. But, um, you take that Scantron, and then before you walk out of the poll site, you slide that Scantron into a machine that electronically records you, right? So, um, that's where we've gone. We've gone from, like, electronic fully to back to electronic with, like, a paper record. And then these folks decide, "Hey, in Iowa, we're gonna build an app, and we're gonna do this caucusing all through an app." It, it just, it was a disaster from the start.
9:01 Chad
Well, you have to think, so they have, like, what? 1,000 or so precincts that are doing the individual caucuses.
9:06 Patrick
But, uh, I mean, to understand caucusing, though, like, I, I don't know if you ever went through that, but, you know, A&M, I had a class where they kinda taught us how the caucus proce- process works, right? And, and you, you try to convince people to come to your side.
9:19 Chad
Yeah, so the deal is you go through your first round or your first alignment.
9:22 Patrick
Correct, yes.
9:22 Chad
And you, you, you stand on the corner of the room for whoever you- candidate you support.
9:27 Patrick
That is correct.
9:28 Chad
And if the candidate doesn't reach a threshold, which I think is, like, 15%-
9:30 Patrick
Uh-huh
9:31 Chad
... then you re- realign.
9:33 Patrick
Yes.
9:33 Chad
And the people will kind of, like, horse trade to try to get you on their side or the other side, and then you, uh, everyone who was below that threshold is basically gone.
9:40 Patrick
Yes.
9:41 Chad
And then all those people who supported that particular candidate have to go pick someone else.
9:45 Patrick
Correct.
9:45 Chad
And that just continues until no one is below that threshold.
9:48 Patrick
That is correct.
9:48 Chad
Right? So you may have one, you may have two, you may have five alignments depending on how the vote shakes out, where people aren't meeting that threshold.
9:57 Patrick
And the idea of a caucus is, especially when you have a field as large as they have in the Democratic primary, 'cause there's a lot of candidates, right? It, it helps to start to move support towards a smaller field, right? And so that's why traditionally they're all done kinda towards the beginning. You don't see caucusing that happens on Super Tuesday, you know? It, it's why it's done towards the beginning. So you get there. You didn't make 15%. "Hey, congratulations, you've gotta move on to somebody else." And so then you start competing for who's gonna be there, and, uh, it's an interesting process because you have to have people who are really good at politicking at each of these caucus locations-
10:36 Chad
Right
10:36 Patrick
... so they can convince people to go there.
10:38 Chad
Right, representing the candidate.
10:40 Patrick
So community leaders representing the candidate, that type of stuff, yeah. Um-
10:41 Chad
But the gist is that-
10:42 Patrick
But why in a, in a process that's, like, so-
10:46 Chad
Small at the end of the day
10:47 Patrick
... well, like, 18th century American?
10:49 Chad
Well, and also, but you've got, you've got only a certain number of precincts-
10:52 Patrick
Let's make sure I've dated that right. I'm sorry. It, it-
10:54 Chad
Eight... That's 1700s, yeah, 1700s
10:56 Patrick
... 1700s, yeah, so 18th century American process.
10:58 Chad
But you only have, like, 1,000-plus precincts. You're gonna have maybe three or four alignments at the max.
11:04 Patrick
Correct.
11:04 Chad
So you're talking, like, just a s- very small amount of data that has to be collected across the entire state. And to solve this problem, you've built an entire app. And I, I, I don't wanna get too technical, but let me kinda go through the process of building an app that would actually do this, okay?
11:24 Patrick
Okay, awesome.
11:24 Chad
Okay.
11:25 Patrick
Go for it.
11:25 Chad
So 'cause probably no one has... A lot of people don't have an idea of how this would actually be built, okay?
11:30 Patrick
Okay.
11:31 Chad
So you got, you got basically two options for you. One, you can build the whole back end yourself. You, you're building a database server. You're building code that writes to and reads from this database and handles logins and all that kind of stuff, right? So you have your own bespoke server-
11:48 Patrick
Gotcha
11:48 Chad
... that's handling all this stuff.
11:49 Patrick
Okay.
11:50 Chad
Or perhaps you're using a service for your database or for your login, so you're not writing quite all of it, but for the most part, you're at least writing some of the business logic on the server side.
12:00 Patrick
Got it.
12:00 Chad
Okay? Then you're, you're writing all the code to handle the interface for the application itself on the phone, like the native iPhone code or iPad code.
12:10 Patrick
The buttons that people are pushing and that sort of stuff.
12:12 Chad
The interface-
12:13 Patrick
Okay, gotcha
12:13 Chad
... that the people are using, okay?
12:14 Patrick
Okay, yep.
12:15 Chad
Totally separate because it's, it's for iPhone or iPad.
12:18 Patrick
We call that the UI.
12:19 Chad
... the user interface
12:20 Patrick
Yeah. No, I'm using it. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
12:21 Chad
Yeah. This is your super technical-
12:23 Patrick
I'm super technical over here
12:24 Chad
... language here. So, so-
12:25 Patrick
I get to get all my nerd points today
12:26 Chad
... so these are written in totally different languages-
12:28 Patrick
Okay
12:28 Chad
... with totally different, um, like, libraries and code bases that you have to use. In a lot of cases, it's probably totally different people, because you have people who specialize in iPhone or iOS, and people who specialize on-
12:40 Patrick
And people who specialize in database
12:40 Chad
... on server side.
12:41 Patrick
Yeah.
12:42 Chad
Um, and then what you have to do is build an interface to connect those things, right? So-
12:47 Patrick
Correct
12:47 Chad
... you have your server-side code that's handling connecting to your database and storing information from each alignment at each precinct, and that's handling logging in and making sure that the users who are logging in actually have access to it-
12:59 Patrick
Yeah
12:59 Chad
... you know, to it. So, so you're building an interf- like a, a go-between, an intermediary between these already two distinct code bases. It's so much effort.
13:09 Patrick
It's a lot of work.
13:09 Chad
So much effort for such a small but extremely important application.
13:16 Patrick
So, so back to my original point when I was trying to figure out what 18th century meant, we took an 18th century process and decided to put an application in the middle of it, a process that's worked for a long time.
13:28 Chad
It has.
13:29 Patrick
Right? It has.
13:29 Chad
No, I mean, it's been updated, right? 'Cause you call your, your results in now instead of-
13:32 Patrick
You call your results in instead. Yeah, I understand that. But-
13:35 Chad
But if you wanna use technology for something like this, you could use a Google spreadsheet.
13:40 Patrick
That's, that's correct.
13:41 Chad
Right? Like, you could have... Or Google Forms, and you could just have each precinct with a, with a form that they go to, and it's authenticated that way, and you don't have to write any of that. It's literally just a form that's feeding into a spreadsheet, which would be perfectly sufficient for their needs.
13:54 Patrick
I- instead of trying to just recreate the wheel.
13:56 Chad
Right. Or, since you're already building an infrastructure for the back end to share the data between all the precincts-
14:02 Patrick
Correct
14:02 Chad
... you're already building that server side, just build a website interface so you're only having to write, you don't have to write the interface between the app and the server.
14:12 Patrick
Okay. Gotcha.
14:12 Chad
When you, when you build a website, y- you basically, all you're doing is you're just putting a, a visual front end on the exact same code that the server is operating on, right? So you're, so at, at the very least, you're reducing the different types of code you're having to write from three to just one.
14:29 Patrick
No, I get that. I just question the fact at all why w- it was necessary to write any type of software program or app for a phone call system that worked just fine.
14:41 Chad
I, I'll leave that to the listener-
14:42 Patrick
I just-
14:42 Chad
... to decide.
14:43 Patrick
Yeah.
14:43 Chad
But I think there's, I mean, I think there's room for technology to make it more efficient. The question is, just what, like, how much technology do you really need to, uh, to introduce to this kind of process? I mean-
14:54 Patrick
I mean, this was so bad. Let's talk about how bad it really was. It was so bad, the candidates literally got on a plane and left the state.
15:00 Chad
I mean, do they still even have official result- I think they do.
15:04 Patrick
No, no, no. Officially, uh, Pete won by, like-
15:08 Chad
Like .08
15:09 Patrick
... .08 or .2-
15:10 Chad
De- delegates or-
15:10 Patrick
... something like that. Yeah, it was like-
15:11 Chad
Or state delegate equivalents or whatever they call it.
15:12 Patrick
Yes, correct. By, by percentage, it was, like, .2%. It was very, very low.
15:16 Chad
But it, it took two weeks or so to get the actual results.
15:19 Patrick
Which, I mean, then at that point, as a voter, you just question, like, were those the actual results?
15:24 Chad
Technology is great. Obviously, we support it. Our entire livelihood at this point is built around software.
15:29 Patrick
Yes. At this point, our livelihood-
15:30 Chad
But-
15:31 Patrick
... is all built around soft- software
15:31 Chad
... you only have to use as much as is necessary. I think there's, like, this famous Einstein para- like, it's a paraph- paraphrasing of, uh, something that he wrote, which is basically, "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler." And I think that the way that they approached it was to make things as complicated as possible, but not more complicated. You know what I mean? Like, they just-
15:51 Patrick
No, agree 100%
15:51 Chad
... they just reverted it on its head.
15:52 Patrick
Yeah.
15:53 Chad
So, uh, yeah, just embrace technology and, and making things more efficient, but man, don't go overboard.
16:00 Patrick
Uh, you know, look, it was a special moment in time, for sure. Maybe Iowa doesn't have an app next year.
16:05 Chad
I suspect they won't.
16:05 Patrick
Or two years from now, right? Yeah. So.
16:08 Chad
So since we're on the topic of technology, let's talk about something that I always find interesting, which is, uh, your IT, IT governance in cities.
16:20 Patrick
Okay.
16:20 Chad
Okay? So we recently had to update, uh, the News Act tax.
16:24 Patrick
Yes.
16:25 Chad
Um, we have introduced some new technologies which are no longer, they no longer support the legacy Internet Explorer.
16:32 Patrick
Okay.
16:33 Chad
Um, which Microsoft itself has basically end-of-lifed as of-
16:37 Patrick
Wait
16:37 Chad
... last year.
16:38 Patrick
I, to, to clarify, we didn't have to do what we did, but in order for us to grow the platform into other areas, we had to redo the platform and improve it significantly, specifically from a database side, right? We had to improve it so that we, we could bring on the other things that we've been telling our clients for a long time that we were gonna bring on.
16:58 Chad
Yeah, no. So none of that stuff had any impact. The, where the impact was the front-end side.
17:02 Patrick
Yes.
17:02 Chad
So we in- introduced some new elements to make the, the user interface better, but the bottom line is that Internet Explorer is basically end-of-lifed.
17:11 Patrick
It doesn't like pretty.
17:12 Chad
As of m- I think March of 2019-
17:15 Patrick
Mm-hmm
17:15 Chad
... Microsoft basically said you should only use IE for legacy applications. Like, there's a lot of healthcare, uh, industry, or industry applications that have been built around old school .net frameworks-
17:25 Patrick
Mm-hmm
17:26 Chad
... and they require IE, and it's way too much effort to, like, update those.
17:31 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
17:31 Chad
Uh, and mission critical. So IE still exists for those, those purposes. So you can upgrade to Micro- to Windows 10, uh, but you can still use IE for all those old things. But they have this new browser, Microsoft Edge, which is what it is. I mean, it's not great, but it's at least built on, you know, some new technology. Um, and Microsoft recommends using that as your default browser and not IE. But we ran into some issues where people would click on their emails, uh, for, like, login or password reset links, but their IT departments had set IE, or kept IE as the default browser on their, basically their default, uh, installation of Windows for their users.
18:14 Patrick
Yes.
18:15 Chad
So these people are opening up... They maybe have been looking, uh, like reset their password in Edge or, or Chrome, but they get their email, and it's opening up into IEAnd they don't know the difference. It's just a browser.
18:27 Patrick
Correct.
18:27 Chad
But it's not working. So we actually had to shut off IE, uh, and basically put up a screen that says, "Hey, you're using Internet Explorer. Microsoft doesn't recommend it. You should use Edge or something else."
18:38 Patrick
Yep.
18:38 Chad
Um, and but basically show them a screen that says, "Sorry-"
18:42 Patrick
Right
18:42 Chad
... 'cause it's not gonna work anymore.
18:43 Patrick
Sorry, you can't do this. I- my, my question is, though, what that tells me as well is that some of those cities are using platforms that are... I, I mean, even, even the Microsoft software itself is gonna be legacy, right? 'Cause when, when you get to, like, Windows 9-
18:58 Chad
There's no Win- yeah, there's no-
18:59 Patrick
There's no IE.
19:00 Chad
There's no Windows 9.
19:01 Patrick
What's-
19:02 Chad
It went from Vista to 7 to 10.
19:05 Patrick
Okay, so Windows 10, right?
19:07 Chad
Shows how much we use Windows.
19:08 Patrick
Right, yeah. We clearly are on... I get on Windows on my Parallels when I need to get to my server, and that's about it. So, uh, but, but the, the question is, is there is no... On my, I mean, on my Window- on the Parallels side of my Windows 10, there's no IE on it at all, is there?
19:22 Chad
Yeah, it's just, it's hidden.
19:24 Patrick
Okay.
19:24 Chad
It's, it's there, but it's-
19:25 Patrick
So these IT departments are, are going to, like, a hidden Internet Explorer.
19:28 Chad
Well, I mean, they probably just have the same images that they had from before, and it just had IE as the default.
19:33 Patrick
Okay.
19:33 Chad
And now that Windows 10 is out there, it has Edge. Whenever they install a new user and it sets up that default image for Windows-
19:39 Patrick
Okay
19:39 Chad
... it's probably just still set as, as Internet Explorer.
19:42 Patrick
But it's not necessarily safe.
19:44 Chad
Oh, no, it's not.
19:45 Patrick
Yeah.
19:45 Chad
It's not safe at all.
19:46 Patrick
Okay.
19:46 Chad
It's far less secure than, you know, n- modern browsers.
19:49 Patrick
Yeah.
19:49 Chad
I mean, I think Microsoft Edge, I know it uses the Chromium, um, like, web driver.
19:54 Patrick
Yes, it does.
19:54 Chad
Um, I assume it's probably what they call evergreen, which is, like, if you go to Chrome or Firefox, these, these s- uh, browsers are updating on their own all the time.
20:03 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
20:03 Chad
Like, weekly if not more often. Um, so you never have to worry about security updates and things like that. I, I assume that Microsoft Edge is probably the same way. Um, but the bigger question is, like, what are IT departments worried about? Um, the level of trust that they have with their users to, I mean, just to install software. One of the big reasons why we decided for web as opposed to an app or, uh, like a desktop application or even an iPhone application for, for ZactX, is because the web is just ubiquitous. You know, you just open a browser and you go on a website and it works. You don't have to install anything. Um, and a lot of these cities in particular, especially as you get bigger and you have-
20:44 Patrick
Correct
20:44 Chad
... stronger and stronger IT governance. I mean, there's a role for IT governance, and there's a role for things like change management and all that kind of stuff.
20:50 Patrick
Oh, in the world, i- in the world of, of, you know, ransomware and things like that, PDFs that get downloaded off the internet, I mean, it, it's, it's a major issue. Don't get me wrong.
21:00 Chad
But you can download a, you can download a bad PDF in any browser.
21:05 Patrick
Any bro- doesn't matter which browser-
21:07 Chad
Right
21:07 Patrick
... you're in.
21:07 Chad
You can-
21:07 Patrick
That's correct
21:07 Chad
... you can be susceptible to a phishing email in any browser.
21:11 Patrick
That's correct.
21:11 Chad
Or any software application. That's not... Like, if you really, if you really wanna protect yourself-
21:16 Patrick
Yes
21:16 Chad
... A, a really good backup system is, is important.
21:18 Patrick
Yes.
21:20 Chad
B, just letting your employees know what is and is not likely to be a phishing email.
21:25 Patrick
Yeah, so s- s- talk about that, a really good backup system. So cities have gone from, "We are gonna protect ourselves," right? Like really, really protective. Like, "Nobody's gonna break into our system. We're gonna build these big walls," right? And now we are on, "We've come to the conclusion that we're not gonna be able to protect ourselves, and so we just have good backup systems so that we can lose a day."
21:45 Chad
Just roll back and lose a day.
21:46 Patrick
Just roll back and lose a day. Like, that's the concept that's in IT. I mean, it's a scary concept for a manager, right? 'Cause managers get, you know, constantly bombarded by our IT folks about, you know, cyber attacks and ransomware and all that different type of stuff. We're not really necessarily worried as much about people stealing financial data or information out of our, out of our systems. We-
22:05 Chad
Well, aside from employee, like, personnel records-
22:07 Patrick
Yeah, except for-
22:07 Chad
... everything's open data anyway, so.
22:08 Patrick
That's correct. Everything's open data except for, like, an employee's Social Security number and address, right? Uh, but it, it really is, it's very interesting to me that we've gone from, in, in my, you know, 15, 16 years, we've gone from, "We're just gonna lock these systems down where nobody else can get into them, and they're gonna be safe and secure and locked like a big box," to now it's, "We're gonna just have really good backups, and if something goes wrong, we'll just roll back to the next day and lose a day."
22:32 Chad
Truthfully, no matter how important the things that we do are, we can always afford to just lose a day rather than having our entire systems encrypted with ransomware, right?
22:43 Patrick
Th- that is absolutely correct, yeah.
22:44 Chad
I mean, it's, it's just a risk mitigation.
22:47 Patrick
Yes.
22:47 Chad
Uh, you know, losing one day's worth of productivity is, is not gonna, is not gonna put the city in a, in a terribly unfortunate state. I mean, it's, it's terrible.
22:57 Patrick
It, it-
22:57 Chad
It sucks. It's a pain in the butt.
22:58 Patrick
And, and let's be honest. There's, there's, there's been a couple of cities out there that have been talked about that have h- gotten hit with ransomware, right? But there's not a city out there in the state of Texas who probably hasn't had at least one instance of ransomware. It may have been isolated, it may have been stopped, but the reality is, is pretty much everybody has been faced with ransomware at some point.
23:15 Chad
Well, I mean, we've, we've worked with cities before that have had to go back and recreate months of financial data.
23:21 Patrick
Months of financial data.
23:22 Chad
Right?
23:23 Patrick
Correct.
23:23 Chad
Uh, and that's just because, uh, it was... In one particular case, it was just a extremely unfortunate set of circumstances that all-
23:29 Patrick
Yeah, it wasn't actually ransomware. It was, it was servers that went down, yeah
23:31 Chad
... all kind of coalesced to, to cause some big problems, but I mean-
23:34 Patrick
Backups are only as good as the data that actually gets backed up.
23:37 Chad
Yeah.
23:37 Patrick
Yeah.
23:37 Chad
But everything is, everything is basically redo-able, is what we kind of learned from that experience. It may not be fun, but you can do it. Um-
23:45 Patrick
I love when we picked up the phone and called Todd Ortek, right? And we, we call Encode, the, the major ser- W- we gotta tell this story just a little bit, right? We had a server that went down. It was our major financial server that went down. There was no, there was no attack on our system or anything like that. We had a, we had a RAID controller. This is getting really technical, but part of the RAID controller went down. The system didn't notify us. The second part went down, and then it started parsing the files like a bad puzzle, right? So it would get, like, the first side of the file and then the third and then the second and then the fifth and then the ninth, and it was just like a... You couldn't put the data back together again. Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall, and you couldn't put him back together. And so this occurred, and we didn't realize that a, a RAID controller had failed, like, three months prior, four months prior.So we call ENCODE and we said, "Hey, we have bad financial data in our system and it's a real problem." And ENCODE's response to us is, "Yep, don't know what to do for you. Good luck."
24:39 Chad
Let us know how that goes.
24:40 Patrick
Let us know how that goes.
24:41 Chad
Whenever you figure that out, that'd be interesting to find out how it works.
24:43 Patrick
Yeah, correct. And so then, then we went back and, and, uh, luckily we, we took all of our paper reports that we had taken out of ENCODE and we recreated every financial tra- transaction for that like three to four-month period. And then when we got done, ENCODE's response was, "Man, if we have another client who does this, y- y'all probably get paid a lot of money to help fix that." So gotta, gotta love that, right?
25:00 Chad
Yeah.
25:01 Patrick
So.
25:01 Chad
But yeah, ha- having and having backups and making sure they're working is quite helpful.
25:06 Patrick
Yes, it is very.
25:06 Chad
But I mean, at the end of the day, I fully understand the, the concern that I- these IT departments have. Part of it is honestly justification of their existence, right?
25:16 Patrick
Ooh.
25:18 Chad
But that's not unique to IT departments. Uh, that's a little bit maybe controversial, but-
25:22 Patrick
Okay.
25:22 Chad
... I mean, we talk about-
25:25 Patrick
That comment's gonna stay on the podcast. Oh my-
25:26 Chad
You want me to go, you want me to go even further? Okay.
25:29 Patrick
Yeah.
25:29 Chad
We talk about like libraries, okay?
25:30 Patrick
Oh, Lord. No, we can't go libraries.
25:32 Chad
We talk about libraries.
25:32 Patrick
We're gonna do this.
25:33 Chad
Talk- We're, we're at a, a firefighter conference, let's talk about fire departments, right?
25:36 Patrick
Fire departments, yes, correct, yes.
25:36 Chad
Why do we have $800,000 traffic cones going out to deal with, with traffic accidents, right? We don't have fires to fight anymore, largely speaking.
25:45 Patrick
Correct, yes.
25:45 Chad
So we find other things to do to justify why we're here.
25:49 Patrick
So-
25:50 Chad
That's not unique to, to IT, to fire, to libraries, to parks, to governments.
25:55 Patrick
Yes. So I'm gonna ref-
25:56 Chad
It's, that's-
25:56 Patrick
I'm gonna reflect-
25:57 Chad
That's a bureaucratic issue.
25:58 Patrick
That's correct. So I'm gonna reflect just for a minute, right, on, on that $800,000 fire cone comment, right? 'Cause I think, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna eat a little crow here for a second, and it's gonna be really interesting. So at this conference, I, I talked to a few people who were selling firetrucks, right? And much like the strong towns movement that's occurred with city managers where it was so cool to build, it was so cool to have sprawl, it was so good to do new development and do all those things, and now we've kind of looked at it and we said, "Wow," like we loved all those badges that we wore on our sleeves, but was really that the smartest decisions, uh, long-term financially for our city? I think that's occurring in the fire department too, right? There's some reflection that's going on in the fire department about fire service and what that fire service looks like and what that level of service needs to look like and all those different types of things. It, it's coming. I'm not saying they're gonna get rid of the pretty red firetruck.
26:47 Chad
Oh. So-
26:48 Patrick
But I, I, I am saying that like, like city managers, they've, they've made decisions just like city managers had out of vanity.
26:57 Chad
It, it's a welcome change if that's the case.
26:59 Patrick
That's correct.
26:59 Chad
But ju- just like we talked about not using more technology than is necessary-
27:03 Patrick
Agreed
27:03 Chad
... right?
27:03 Patrick
Yes.
27:04 Chad
We've been using way more fire technology than is necessary for what we're actually doing most of the time.
27:10 Patrick
I'm telling you, I literally saw a drone for a f- a, a fire thing that, that was flying in the air today at this conference, and I thought to myself like, "What do you use that drone for?" So I went over to talk to the guy and I got a, "It's really cool."
27:24 Chad
That was it?
27:25 Patrick
I mean, but I mean, from a development standpoint, you know, you get an economic development director out there and, and we develop something that we don't really look the financials on and it's, it's, it's really cool. That's why we did it. It's really cool. So.
27:35 Chad
So that digression aside-
27:37 Patrick
Yeah
27:38 Chad
... you can't really argue that there's not some degree of, um, of justification to why we have all these policies. It's not IT centric, it's not firefighters or libraries. Every bureaucracy is going to develop rules and procedures to justify HR, right?
27:55 Patrick
But that makes us less efficient.
27:56 Chad
It does. That's what's kind of what I'm gl- alluding to with, you know-
28:00 Patrick
Yes
28:00 Chad
... this whole, whole topic, is I understand that there's some level of security and governance that needs to happen because, I mean, even though you want all of your employees to be responsible adults, not everyone's gonna be. But the things that are causing us the most problems are not gonna be controlled by whether you set a default browser or whether your network settings are blocking Facebook, right? The things that are causing, that you hear about the most are people responding to bogus emails, and there's just no way to really solve that.
28:32 Patrick
You, you can't change somebody's bad decision-making habit in an email. You know, I mean, you could train them. Uh, we have an IT firm that works for us that like tries to actually trick them and then train them after they trick them and-
28:46 Chad
So you, you wanna tell a funny story real quick?
28:48 Patrick
Yeah, go ahead.
28:48 Chad
Okay. 'Cause I, I do wanna talk about something else-
28:50 Patrick
Okay
28:51 Chad
... be- before we wrap up here.
28:52 Patrick
Yeah.
28:52 Chad
But, uh, if we go a little bit longer than normal, you know, whatever.
28:54 Patrick
Yeah.
28:54 Chad
We're, we're at a conference. Who cares?
28:56 Patrick
We're probably gonna cut out all the comments about libraries and fire departments, so we got time.
28:59 Chad
Oh, no.
29:00 Patrick
We're gonna leave that, yeah.
29:01 Chad
Okay. So, um, we got a phishing email, uh, at one point.
29:06 Patrick
Oh, yes. This is a great story.
29:07 Chad
Okay. So we got a phishing email sent to our finance director.
29:09 Patrick
Hold on. Did we violate any federal laws before we tell this story?
29:12 Chad
No.
29:13 Patrick
Okay, we're good.
29:13 Chad
No.
29:13 Patrick
Law enforcement was involved.
29:14 Chad
Statute of limitations is over anyway.
29:16 Patrick
That's true. All right.
29:16 Chad
Yeah, no, they, they, they thought what we did was pretty clever.
29:18 Patrick
Yeah, that's true. Yes.
29:19 Chad
Okay. So, so a phishing email comes to our finance director. It says, uh, "Hey, Doug," comma, like all these random spaces and capitalizations, like it's obvious it's not from, from Patrick.
29:29 Patrick
Yes.
29:29 Chad
But it says, "This is Patrick. Please follow the instructions to this email and wire this money."
29:35 Patrick
To which this has been used on many cities and many cities have wired money.
29:38 Chad
Which is insane. Now in our-
29:39 Patrick
It, it happens
29:40 Chad
... in our case, it was obviously stilted English. It was not something that you would've said.
29:44 Patrick
And we're not, we're not gonna talk about our actual policy, getting back to IT policies on this, right? But we're not gonna talk about our actual policy 'cause people don't need to know that and use it against us later. But we have a very deliberate and specific policy in place for how wires are sent to protect against this, right?
29:59 Chad
Right.
29:59 Patrick
So the process started, and, and continue with the story.
30:01 Chad
Yeah. But I mean, if you're getting that email as, uh, some kind of clerk who handles wires-
30:08 Patrick
Yes
30:08 Chad
... right, hopefully you have a process in place where multiple people have to approve it and vet it and make sure that it's, you know, if you're sending money directly to someone else, that there's a level of check and balance that goes on. But in this case, it was obviously not from Patrick, even though it was spoofed as his email address. Um, like the language was crazy. We were in a small organization. He would've walked into Doug's office anyway and said, "Hey, I got this. Here's the paperwork for it." It wouldn't have come from a random email.
30:32 Patrick
In fact, we didn't send a wire unless they saw my face in front of them to tell them-
30:36 Chad
Yes
30:36 Patrick
... to send a wire.
30:37 Chad
That's right. So we knew it was fake.So here's what we did. We, we kind of played along with them. We emailed them back a few times and just-
30:43 Patrick
A few times
30:44 Chad
... kind of irritated them a little bit to get-
30:45 Patrick
Correct, yes
30:46 Chad
... more information. And I don't know if you know this, but if you go into a website-
30:50 Patrick
Mm-hmm
30:51 Chad
... uh, if you have, if you're in Chrome or Safari or Firefox, uh, there are things called developer tools, which let you inspect the actual HTML that generates the website that you're seeing.
31:02 Patrick
That's correct.
31:03 Chad
You can change the way that it looks. You can basically manipulate everything that you see on the screen. So we went into our bank system and looked at an old, like, receipt basically of a wire draft that was legitimate that we did.
31:16 Patrick
Yes.
31:16 Chad
And we just used the, uh, the dev tools to change the information that was shown on the screen to-
31:22 Patrick
The account numbers, the sender information, all that type of stuff, yes
31:24 Chad
... to what they sh- they sent us-
31:26 Patrick
Yes
31:26 Chad
... should be sent.
31:26 Patrick
Yes.
31:27 Chad
And we took a screenshot of it.
31:28 Patrick
Yes.
31:28 Chad
Okay?
31:30 Patrick
And then, hold on-
31:30 Chad
So-
31:30 Patrick
And then we took the screenshot.
31:32 Chad
So we took the screenshot.
31:32 Patrick
Yeah.
31:32 Chad
We uploaded it to a web server that we had.
31:34 Patrick
Uh-huh.
31:35 Chad
We built a script, like a, uh, basically a, a URL that fed to a script.
31:40 Patrick
An embedded pixel URL.
31:41 Chad
It embedded a pixel-
31:42 Patrick
Yes
31:43 Chad
... into the image that it later served.
31:45 Patrick
Okay, at this point, guys, I wanna be clear because we changed- ... the HTML of a website. We embedded a pixel in an email. We at this point had law enforcement there with us-
31:54 Chad
Right
31:54 Patrick
... as we were doing this, right? To, to which the, the law enforcement official who was basically the IT specialist for the, the law enforcement agency that we were working with was absolutely amazed by what we were doing.
32:07 Chad
Basically, long story short, all this did was whenever that image was requested-
32:12 Patrick
It sent us, yeah
32:12 Chad
... like if you opened an email, it would track all the information about the IP address and the location of where that request was coming from.
32:21 Patrick
It would give us the location of where the request came from.
32:23 Chad
So when we sent the email, uh-
32:27 Patrick
Well, it ki-
32:27 Chad
... with that screenshot-
32:28 Patrick
Some of the responses were, were doozies too. I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of important to talk about. Like, you sent off the email, and it's like, "Yes, sir," and-
32:34 Chad
Yeah.
32:34 Patrick
I mean, it was just, it was, you know, it was, it was funny.
32:37 Chad
Yeah.
32:37 Patrick
The whole process was funny.
32:37 Chad
The more we interacted, the more blatant the s-
32:40 Patrick
The-
32:40 Chad
... the scam became.
32:41 Patrick
That's correct, yes.
32:42 Chad
But so we s- we sent a follow-up email with a response and a screenshot of this fake transaction-
32:47 Patrick
Uh-huh
32:48 Chad
... uh, that was la... Uh, it was, it wasn't the actual screenshot. It was the URL of this script that we wrote that would store the IP address information for anyone who actually viewed the image.
32:59 Patrick
Yes.
32:59 Chad
So when they opened the email and it pulled up that image-
33:02 Patrick
It ran a script
33:03 Chad
... it ran the IP address-
33:04 Patrick
Mm-hmm
33:04 Chad
... of that computer, and we were able to trace it to a, like a, an internet cafe in Lagos, Nigeria.
33:11 Patrick
It, yes, it was in Lagos, Nigeria.
33:12 Chad
So-
33:12 Patrick
It was an internet cafe. We actually got a picture of the cafe and pulled it up.
33:17 Chad
Yeah.
33:17 Patrick
There was nothing we could do at that point.
33:18 Chad
Nothing we could do.
33:19 Patrick
Yeah.
33:19 Chad
But we were hopeful that maybe it was some, you know, some guy in his mom's basement, basement and, uh-
33:23 Patrick
Well, 'cause I think they were, they wanted us to actually wire the money to a bank in New York, and then I'm sure they were just gonna wire the money out of that bank in New York back to Nigeria. But, uh, so we were hopeful we would find somebody, like, in the States.
33:33 Chad
Yeah.
33:33 Patrick
Like, you know, we were, we were gonna be like the super sleuths, and we were gonna catch somebody.
33:36 Chad
At the end of the day, we wasted, like, two hours, and-
33:39 Patrick
It was fun in the office
33:39 Chad
... it was what it was.
33:40 Patrick
Like, everybody was crowded around the office watching this. It was... You know, we had a good time with it, so.
33:44 Chad
Okay. So Pat, I just got back from Disney.
33:49 Patrick
This is, like, your third or fourth vacation of the year.
33:51 Chad
Uh, so I-
33:52 Patrick
Can we talk about this?
33:53 Chad
I hope my wife doesn't listen. But since my oldest was born four and a half years ago, I swear we've been to Disneyland, Disney World, like, six times now.
34:03 Patrick
So I can handle Disneyland six times, but Disney World's a lot.
34:07 Chad
It's a lot.
34:07 Patrick
Yeah.
34:08 Chad
A lot of parks.
34:09 Patrick
Yeah.
34:09 Chad
A lot of people. Anyway.
34:12 Patrick
Yes.
34:13 Chad
So this was our, like, biannual trip semiannual trip to Disney. And, uh, I, I have to tell you something. So, so the new Frozen came out recently.
34:24 Patrick
Frozen 2.
34:24 Chad
Frozen 2 came out over the holidays. Um, when the first one... Actually, the first one came out way before my kid was born, but-
34:30 Patrick
Still just as frozen.
34:32 Chad
It's, yeah.
34:33 Patrick
Yeah.
34:34 Chad
So, um, the first Disney show that my oldest, uh, my son was ever interested in was Moana, which was a great show.
34:41 Patrick
Great. Fantastic movie.
34:42 Chad
Great message, great show.
34:44 Patrick
Yes.
34:44 Chad
Wonderful music.
34:45 Patrick
Awesome.
34:45 Chad
Lin-Manuel Miranda is amazing.
34:47 Patrick
Yes.
34:48 Chad
Um, so I was perfectly fine watching that over and over and over.
34:51 Patrick
In my opinion, will probably go down as one of the greatest Disney movies ever made.
34:54 Chad
Yeah, I don't know.
34:54 Patrick
It's, it's really good.
34:55 Chad
It's good.
34:56 Patrick
It's good.
34:56 Chad
It's good. Anyway.
34:58 Patrick
Yeah. It's good.
34:59 Chad
Uh, very quickly after that, he abandoned Moana, jumped on the Frozen bandwagon-
35:04 Patrick
Okay
35:05 Chad
... which j- is just terrible. It's-
35:09 Patrick
The face that you have right now when you say, "It's just terrible," I have to describe it. Eyes rolled back, face going side to side.
35:16 Chad
Gesticulations.
35:17 Patrick
Just arms up in the air. It's just, yeah, I understand it.
35:20 Chad
So that lasted a few months, and then Frozen kind of died off, and other things happened, and then Frozen 2 came out.
35:25 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
35:25 Chad
And so for the last m- two months now, we've been nonstop Frozen. And Frozen 2 finally came out on, um, like to buy, I guess, last week.
35:35 Patrick
Uh-huh.
35:36 Chad
So now we have Frozen 2. We already know all the songs 'cause we've been listening to them in the car forever. And anyway, so, uh, so now we're onto Frozen 2 again. But here's what I wanna say about Frozen. First of all, Moana was almost an afterthought. Like, we went to Disney when Moana was, was released. There was almost nothing about Moana, and I don't think that there's a Moana character at Disney World. You can, I think there is one at Disneyland 'cause we, we met her.
36:00 Patrick
Yep.
36:00 Chad
But Disney World is, like, it's basically nothing. There's a handful of, uh, you know, stuffed animal cartoons or, uh, stuffed animals, and there's, they can buy a dress at the little boutique at, where you can get all the princess dresses. But there's basically nothing about Moana, which is this great story about, you know, um, empowerment and, and all this kind of stuff. Frozen, on the other hand, is basically a story about Disney's first postmodern princess. Like, this may be even more controversial than the comment about, uh, you know, justification of our jobs. Elsa's terrible. She is-
36:35 Patrick
Like, in what way is she terrible?
36:37 Chad
Elsa. Okay, so f- in the original Frozen, her, her, like, big song, the big anthem that, you know, won an Oscar and was like-
36:43 Patrick
"Let it go."
36:44 Chad
Yeah, you don't need to s-
36:45 Patrick
"Let it go."
36:45 Chad
PleasePlease don't sing
36:47 Patrick
There's, all right
36:47 Chad
If we still have anyone still listening, they're gonna stop if you can sing
36:50 Patrick
Or stop right now, yes
36:51 Chad
It's basically about how she just doesn't give a crap anymore about how what she does affects anyone else, right? She's just gonna leave and just do whatever she wants to do
37:02 Patrick
Standard millennial
37:04 Chad
That's why I say she's, she's-
37:05 Patrick
It's, I, I'm joking around, like she's a millennial
37:06 Chad
She's the first post-modern Disney princess
37:08 Patrick
Yes
37:08 Chad
I've been making this case to my wife for, like, seven years now. Um, you know, Anna's great. She's nice. She was a bit naive, but she's a nice person. Elsa is basically just terrible So- Um, and then so the new Frozen came out, and she's like, "Oh, no, Elsa's redeemed," right? She's, she's recognized that she was selfish and now she's better, but the, the song that she sings this time, which is called Into the Unknown, she basically, uh ... No, I'm sorry, it's actually this, it's the finale song called Show Yourself.
37:36 Patrick
Show Yourself, yes
37:38 Chad
Okay. I, I, I ha- I really am sad that I even know all this, but-
37:42 Patrick
Is that a Justin Bieber song?
37:44 Chad
No
37:44 Patrick
Okay. Just-
37:45 Chad
No, that's Love Yourself
37:47 Patrick
Love Yourself, yeah, that's right, yeah. Sorry
37:48 Chad
Oh, Biebs. Okay.
37:50 Patrick
Love Biebs
37:50 Chad
So anyway, uh, so in this song she basically says, um, uh, basically, like, "I've always been the kind of person f- that normal rules don't apply for me," right?
37:59 Patrick
Okay, yeah
38:00 Chad
So, like, she hasn't learned anything. So we've gone six years between the first movie and the second movie, and she has not learned a damn thing about how her, how her actions affect other people and how she needs to be cognizant of that. And, uh, and so in the first episode, just to go back to that, the first movie, um, uh, the original argument that she kind of had remorse was when, uh, Anna found her in her, like, ice castle.
38:28 Patrick
Uh-huh
38:28 Chad
And, uh, she's like, "You know, everything's, uh, everything's frozen back in Arendelle, and, like, you know, you have to come fix it." And her response is, "Oh, I'm such a fool. I can't be free." It's like, "Woe is me that I can't just do whatever I want and damn the consequences." So I just-
38:46 Patrick
It's a whole conversation
38:47 Chad
I just, I just have to get this off my chest
38:49 Patrick
Okay
38:49 Chad
Elsa is a terrible role model for, for young girls, for young boys, for anyone. She is the worst Disney princess, and that's all I gotta say about that
38:59 Patrick
That's all. You got that off your chest and we covered it
39:00 Chad
I got that off my chest
39:01 Patrick
So we have covered bad technology-
39:03 Chad
It is, it is on, it is on record now
39:04 Patrick
We've covered bad technology, the end of life for Internet Explorer, all different types of stuff in between that, and, and then now Elsa is the worst princess you've ever faced
39:14 Chad
So you know what's funny-
39:14 Patrick
Or, or, or known
39:15 Chad
... is the people in the booth next to us today-
39:17 Patrick
Yes
39:18 Chad
... I had this exact same conversation, and they 100% agreed.
39:21 Patrick
This was which booth? This was the booth, the construction booth?
39:23 Chad
The, the architect guys
39:24 Patrick
The architect guys, okay. Interesting. Yeah
39:26 Chad
They also, he, uh, one of them had kids the same age as mine.
39:29 Patrick
Okay
39:30 Chad
And he was like, "Yeah, she's terrible." So, so, so that's pretty funny. There, there was a, uh, there was a cartoon that my brother's kids used to watch all the time. I'm trying to remember the name of it, but it was always, like, a whiny kid. Is it Peppa Pig?
39:44 Patrick
It, Peppa's whiny, too
39:45 Chad
Because, because-
39:46 Patrick
No, but it's on the same channel. It's, uh, it's, it's the little boy that's on there, and I can't remember the name of that one, but, ah, it'll come to me. But my brother used to always say, "I'm not gonna let my watch, my kids watch this, 'cause all this kid does is whine."
39:58 Chad
Yeah, I know people didn't like Peppa Pig because I think she was rude to her parents or something. I don't know.
40:02 Patrick
Yeah, we-
40:03 Chad
I know my kids have never watched Peppa Pig, but-
40:04 Patrick
Yeah. So my kids are already watching Ninja Turtles. I'm not sure that's appropriate at this point, but that's what they're watching
40:10 Chad
Yeah, my four-year-old loves Power Rangers
40:11 Patrick
Oh, Dino Charge? Power Rangers Dino Charge.
40:15 Chad
Yeah.
40:16 Patrick
That's-
40:16 Chad
So, uh, when my wife and I first started dating, uh, we went to s- to school at different schools.
40:23 Patrick
That's correct, yeah
40:24 Chad
And, you know, you're in the early sort of honeymoon period, and we would talk on the phone all night. And it would get to the point where Power Rangers would come on the TV, and it was like, "Okay, well, I guess it's time to go to class now."
40:35 Patrick
Nice
40:36 Chad
So that's the last time I watched Power Rangers was way back in, uh, in college
40:40 Patrick
Nice. Well, guys, we're gonna wrap it up on this episode of ZacCast. I appreciate you coming and hanging out with Chad and I and, uh, letting us kind of bloviate on these issues today. So, um, you know, obviously we've got a lot to talk about. I really loved being at the Safety Conference, hanging out with our firefighter buddies. Uh, we are, uh, super excited to be able to help those folks out. And, uh, if you've got questions for us, always reach out. Talk to you soon.
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February 25th, 2020
Updated Oct 27, 2025
41:34
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