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The Last Dance

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0:14 Chad
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to ZacCast. This is Chad Janicek with Patrick Lawler, and today, uh, we are gonna be talking about Michael Jordan because no one has ever accused us of, uh, requiring that this podcast be topical. Um, and I just finally got around to finishing the, uh, The Last Dance, the 10-part, uh, documentary miniseries that ESPN released earlier this year. And Patrick has been kind of bugging me to finish it because he really wanted to talk about it, and we've kind of gone back and forth on some of these questions about leadership and Michael Jordan's perspective on it and, uh, and the drive that allowed him to achieve a level of success that really very few people in any fields get to achieve. So Patrick, why don't you just talk a little bit about the documentary for those who haven't seen it, and, uh, just kind of get us started.
1:01 Patrick
Well, first off, let me say, if you haven't seen the documentary and, uh, you do not want a spoiler, then you should turn off this podcast. So let's start there. This is a fantastic documentary if you want to look at leadership or a specific perspective on leadership, maybe a couple perspectives if you also look at the Phil Jackson angle as well and how, how he led. Um, but yeah, I mean, The Last Dance is basically a documentary, uh, that chronicles Jordan's rise as, um, a phenom, you know, as an icon in, in basketball. I mean, Jordan basically put the NBA on his back, and a league that was a really just kind of a miserable association of teams at the time, um, and, you know, brought it to prominence. And The Last Dance goes through his entire life, talks about his childhood, um, talks about his relationship with his dad, where he grew up and how he grew up, and, uh, him not making a, a team early in his life and how that grew a seed, like a mustard seed of competitiveness within him, um, and really drove him through his career, uh, to where he never wanted to lose at anything ever again. So it, it obvious- obviously follows him through his college career, uh, follows him into his early NBA, um, you know, chronicles his relationships with guys like Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, um, and, and then goes into, uh, the run, the championship runs, the great runs that were made, uh, by what is still today considered one of the greatest teams in NBA history, uh, the Chicago Bulls. So, uh, you know, really just getting into it, what was really interesting about this is I think I had as a child a very sugar-coated view of Jordan from a, from a leadership standpoint. You know, I just saw him as this great basketball player, um, and, and I didn't get to see the grind, uh, that behind it. What created Jordan, uh, what his, what his actual style of leadership was, which I think what a lot of people took from this documentary-- I didn't take that he was a bad guy. I wanna be very clear about that. But what a lot of people took from this documentary, or if, if you watch it, is that, uh, Jordan was a leader by being, um, what's the best term here, Chad? A jerk?
3:27 Chad
Yeah.
3:27 Patrick
I, I mean-
3:28 Chad
I have a feeling there will be some bleeps in this episode just because it's hard to talk about that level of, um, ferociousness in your interpersonal reactions without using terms that are more harsh than jerk. Uh-
3:44 Patrick
Yeah
3:44 Chad
... but we'll do our best.
3:45 Patrick
Yeah, I mean, we'll w- do our best to talk about that. But, you know, obviously, as Jordan rose to prominence, you know, he was-- When, when he got to the Bulls, uh, he considered himself just a player. Um, he didn't associate with anybody. I, I think that's an important topic. You know, he, he basically went home, did his own laundry, cooked his own food, uh, didn't really go out with the guys, uh, and, you know, was, was kind of a skinny, you know, just, just getting through basketball player early in his career, but the talent was there, and you could see how good he was. And so he started to rise to prominence, and that's once again where that competitive nature came out, uh, and he started to have the drive. He practiced longer than anybody else. He pushed you harder than you've ever been pushed. He expected, uh, a high level of intensity and work ethic from people that played around him, and if you didn't do that, he would grind you constantly. If that was verbally, if it was physically, um, he was gonna make sure that he got every ounce out of you, every last ounce. And if you didn't give him every last ounce, he, he was gonna take it. He was gonna find a way to go get it. And if that meant he had to be that jerk to get there, that's, that's what it was. And so I, I, I think it was really interesting to, to watch this documentary to see that leadership style 'cause it, it-- in my mind, Chad, it just started asking how many different, how many different leadership styles are there out there? And, you know, is, is this a common leadership style? Does it work? I mean, all these different questions. So let's, let's kind of run through that, and let's talk about that. You know, do you, do you have to be this type of ruthless leader, uh, uh, in sports or in business to win? I mean, is that something that's necessary?
5:42 Chad
So we, we've kinda talked about the, this question, uh, on and off for the past couple of weeks just offline, me and you, and, uh, trying to come up with examples of people who fit that mold, people who didn't fit that mold, and for me at least, the, the big differentiator between, um, leaders who have this jerkish mentality, uh, and those who don't isIt's, it seems to be very common among leaders who, I guess I wanna say, like, do great things. Um, and that's not necessarily a moral judgment on great, just great as in big. They do big things. I mean, you look at Steve Jobs, he was a total jerk. A lot of these examples are, are that I'm about to give are kind of in the tech field because that's kind of where my head is a lot, and that's kind of like the, the type of business stories that I tend to read. But, uh, you know, Zuckerberg is a jerk. Jeff Bezos is apparently pretty, pretty rude. Um, Bill Gates, uh, is the type of guy who always thinks he's the smartest person in the room and always knows how something should work, and, um, you know, he doesn't have, doesn't seem to have a lot of empathy. Um, and but these are people who ultimately, o-over the past fif- you know, forty, fifty years have very much changed the world. They have done great things. And, and yeah, that's, that's the question is if you wanna do great things, do you have to have that kind of mentality? I mean, uh, in the documentary, B.J. Armstrong is asked the question, "Was Jordan nice?" And he's like, "He couldn't have been nice." Like, you can't be a nice guy with the mentality that he has to achieve greatness one hundred percent of the time. And even Jordan said something to the effect of, you know, some people may say he wasn't a nice guy, he was a tyrant. And he goes, "Well, that's just you. That's because you've never won anything. I wanted to win, and I wanted them to be a part of that. That was my mentality. And it, you know, if you don't wanna play that way, don't play that way. But the only reason that you see it like that, that I'm a tyrant, is because you've, you've never achieved the level of greatness that I was able to achieve." I, I do think it's, it's worth talking about from a leadership standpoint, though. Like, do you have to have a level of, um, dickishness, if I can say that, um, in order to push people to a higher level, or is there some other way that you can, uh, that you can bring about that kind of growth and performance?
8:16 Patrick
Well, you know, I don't think it's just Jordan. I mean, there's a, there's a really famous, uh, speech, which I'm gonna bring up somebody you just absolutely love, uh, Nick Saban, right?
8:24 Chad
Ugh.
8:24 Patrick
There's a really famous speech that Nick Sab- right? He, he goes on, and he, he's just sitting at a podium. I don't even know who he's talking to when he says it, but it's a good thirty-second clip. And he talks about how high-performing, high-achieving people do not like being around mediocre people.
8:41 Chad
Mm-hmm.
8:42 Patrick
And the reason they don't like being around mediocre people is because high achievers want to win. They wanna perform-
8:48 Chad
Well-
8:48 Patrick
... at a high level, and they wanna win.
8:50 Chad
Well, Jobs said the same thing. He said, "A people don't hire B people. They don't hire C people. They hire other A peoples." They wanna surround themselves with high performers, um, because, you know, if, uh, if you are a high performer and you bring in a bunch of people to work with you who are l- who are not as dedicated or driven, it's just gonna frustrate you. And so, you know, you're not going to achieve what you're trying to achieve.
9:18 Patrick
Well, I mean, let's, let's look at that from a personal standpoint. Let's look at you. Let's look at me, right? We were n... I, I would consider we were somewhat nice. I was probably a little bit more sociable than you were. But we didn't do well with employees who didn't perform, ever. In fact, we probably drove those employees who did work for us to the brink all the time. And there were, uh, uh, I mean, there were multiple occasions where we'd have an employee walk in my office or your office and tell me, "It's just too much. You're burning me out." Right? But I always, always pushed for that last, that last little bit that I could get out of somebody, not because I was trying to get some level of productivity. That, that was not it. I just wanted somebody to see that they could perform at that level. I, I, I don't think that's any different from what Jordan's doing, right? I mean, Jordan's doing it in a way that's ruthless. I mean, he, he would pick on you, right? If you gained weight in the off-season, he's gonna pick on you.
10:18 Chad
Yeah, and, uh, and he would push, he would push people in practice, um, and like you said, just pick on them to try to bring out in them the same competitive spirit that he had. Um, I think in our circumstance, there's some degree of necessity in having every single person contribute equally, uh, just because it was such a small organization that we worked in together. I-in bigger organizations, it's, it's probably a little bit more difficult to have that same expectation when you have multiple people that perform the same job and that work is split, uh, and there's re- there's more redundancy. It's a little bit harder to demand peak performance. I mean, that, that may not be fair, um, but I think it's probably true. What do you think about that?
11:08 Patrick
Uh, I mean-
11:08 Chad
Is, is, is, is that totally off base?
11:11 Patrick
I don't think it's totally off base. I just think it's harder in a larger organization to find people who aren't performing, right? Um, when, when you're talking about a basketball court with five players on the court and, you know, six or seven players on the bench, there's... You're, you're gonna see it. Same, same thing in a, in a smaller city. When, when you're in a smaller city and you've only got 15 people in city hall, you're gonna know who's not performing very quickly, 'cause it's gonna push work onto other people. It's noticeable, right? When you're in a larger organization, it's not near as noticeable. It doesn't make it right, in my opinion. I mean, I, I hate to come off as the ruthless guy, but I think that's... If, if you know, if you know a little bit about me, one of the things that I've one of the things I don't like is somebody who, um, who throws work on other people or does not perform up to the same level as the rest of the team. In fact, those people don't work very long for me. Um, and, and I-- You know, you're gonna laugh at me, and Chad's gonna make some jokes when I say this.But Jordan, for him, it happened at a certain point in life. Um, it was when he didn't make a basketball team in high school, and, and you, you learn about that in the documentary. For me, it's, it was really similar to, to that. It was-- I had a football coach in high school, and I played in a program at Katy. There you go. I said it. You can put the dollar in the jar. I played football at Katy, and you were expected to perform-
12:32 Chad
I think, I think saying that you played is perhaps a bit generous, but yeah, go ahead.
12:36 Patrick
And, yeah, I'm sorry that I had an all-state guy who played in front of me, but, uh, I did get to see some snaps on the field. I appreciate that, Chad, very much. But the reality is, is that you were expected to be ready at any given time. You were expected to, to perform, to, um, uh, to give everything you've got. Seven days a week, you were expected to be there and to give everything you got, and that's why they've won eight state championships, right? Um, and just like the Bulls, the only way you could do that is if you were doing summer workouts and you were doing, uh, the things that were necessary as a team. I mean, Jordan would hold practices outside of team practices during off periods and have an expectation that people be there. The only exception to that, by the way, Dennis Rodman, which is a, a whole other story that we would have to talk about. But th-th-the reality is, is that in order to perform, you have to have people around you that are going to be willing to, to go to that high level. Um, and do you have to be ruthless in order to perform at that high level? In some instances, like sports competition at a very high level, you, you probably do, in my opinion.
13:51 Chad
So since you brought up your, uh, football prowess at, at Katy High School, uh, I will bring up my own, my own, uh, comparable experience. So, um, in high school, col- early college, I was a drummer. Uh, I marched drum corps for three years, uh, which for those of you who don't know what it is, it's like competitive marching band. Um, it's, uh, super nerdy, I fully admit. But in my second year, I was the, uh, the section leader of the drum line, and we won our division in the world championships that summer. And so, like, I, I also have some background in performing at a high level in a very competitive sport, quote unquote sport. Uh, and if you don't think it's a sport, I will link in the show notes, uh, a video from, I think, 1993, where they actually put a bunch of heart monitoring devices on, uh, on one of the drummers during a rehearsal. Uh, so you can see the actual physical exertion that takes place.
14:52 Patrick
I'm la- I'm laughing right now. Can I laugh?
14:53 Chad
I know you are. I know you are. Hey, I'll own it. I don't care. I, I was, uh, I was nerdy.
14:57 Patrick
And, and also, can we pop in, y- how long was your hair at this time?
15:02 Chad
Uh, it was, it was longer than shoulder length.
15:05 Patrick
Yes. Okay.
15:05 Chad
But, um-
15:06 Patrick
Just wanna make sure we understand the, the hippie lifestyle you lived at this sometime.
15:09 Chad
Those were my hippie musician days. Um, but in that environment, to get to that point, there was absolutely a level of intensity, of focus, of holding people accountable that, you know... You, you have a 12-minute musical and marching show that you basically are rehearsing and performing for seven months. Like, that's your life. And during the, during the summer, it's literally all day. Like, you go on tour, you travel the country, and you, and you practice and perform this 12-minute show. And, um, it's extremely repetitive, and it can get mundane, and you're just doing the same things over and over again. But to get to a level where it's con- you're, you're consistent and you're high achieving and you're, you're performing at a com- level that's, uh, that's going to put you at the top of, you know, the rung, you can't just phone it in. And so, uh, as a leader in that organization, it was always on me to make sure that everyone else was upholding those same standards, which one thing that Jordan talks about is that, you know... And, and this is, this is, like, a, a trope that you hear all the time about leadership is never ask someone to do something that you're not willing to do.
16:28 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
16:28 Chad
Um, and it's, it's trite, but it's true. You have to either have done those things at some point in your career, you have to have done those things and kind of put your dues in, or you have to be willing to do them now, um, you know, if you're going to ask other people to do them. And we've talked about city managers who go ride trash trucks to show that, you know, they, they want to learn and empathize with what their employees are having to go through. Um, I've talked about sitting on the back of an asphalt laydown machine, you know, in 110-degree, uh, Texas heat, just because that's something that you have to do as a leader is to show that you're willing to do the same things that you're asking everyone else to do, and to do them at the exact same level of standards that you expect them to do them at. I don't disagree with you that to, to some extent, especially I think in, in competitive and creative fields, you-- where, where things are-- Creative fields where things are a little bit less defined, uh, like what you're, what you're building or creating might be brand new, maybe never have been done before, um, and then competitive, uh, arenas where you, you are constantly putting yourself against some standard of greatness when you're actually competing against other people. That's, that's a very concrete way to evaluate how well you're doing. Uh, when, when you're talking about city management and, you know, road construction or parks maintenance or planning and development, it's not always as easy to say we're doing a good job or we're not doing a good job, 'cause you don't necessarily have that standard to compare against.
18:06 Patrick
I, I think that's fair, and it takes a lot longer to do it. Uh, you know, one of the things that comes out of Jordan's leadership style, though, him being ruthless is, is the filtration mechanism that that leadership style creates, right?Um, a-and let's talk about that high achieving people wanna work with high achieving people so if you go play for the Bulls during, you know, Jordan's time period and you are not a high achieving person, you're not gonna be on the Bulls very long Right.
18:36 Chad
One would also assume the same is true for, say, a Bill Belichick coached team
18:40 Patrick
I, I believe-
18:41 Chad
Or a Nick Saban coached team
18:43 Patrick
C-correct. So, uh, one of the best bets in Vegas right now, by the way, is, is whether the, the Patriots will win their division or not, uh, 'cause they're currently not the favorite to win their division, so I would go make that bet on the Patriots to win that division. Cam Newton or no Cam Newton, he's gonna win. But a-and the reality is, is it's because the organization that Belichick builds around him. Same thing with Jordan. Jordan builds teammates around him that are going to perform at that level. If not, he's such a jerk, he runs them off at the end of the day. You can't do that in a city organization. I understand that you can't do that in, in a, in a city organization. But high achievers are driven towards high achievers. I mean, let's just look at you and me in grad school, right? I, I, I would say 80% of the class that we had in grad school probably didn't love me all that much. I mean, is that a fair assessment?
19:31 Chad
Yeah, it's probably fair.
19:33 Patrick
So I mean, we may go as high as 90. Uh, but you... There was a, it was a large thing, but I was a high achiever, you were a high achiever, and so we were driven towards a friendship because of this mutual respect for being high achievers. We, we knew, I looked at you and got to know you and knew that you were passionate and you would work hard at whatever you did, right? And you looked at me and knew that I was the same way. And so we are automatically gonna be driven towards grouping ourselves with people like that. We wanna get on that bus, and that's what Jordan did so successfully. Where he got mean and ruthless and things like that is when those people let him down. When Scottie Pippen decided to hold out, that's where he got ruthless. That's where he got mean, right? When somebody didn't play through an injury that wasn't all that bad of an injury, that's where he got upset. I, I think if, if anybody comes out looking poorly in this documentary, it's not Jordan. You know, Jordan, like I said, he, he was sugarcoated for me as a kid and now he's a real person, right? He's a real leader, he's a real person, and he had real flaws, and we could talk about the flaws here in a little bit. But what really came out to me in this documentary was Scottie Pippen, he was mentally weak, in my opinion, and for him to be as successful as he was with Jordan, uh, I, I think was an incredible feat. But ultimately, he, he made some interesting decisions.
21:11 Chad
So I think the Pippen thing, which has been talked about a lot, and as a, just as a caveat, this documentary was heavily produced with Jordan. So while it's about the Bulls' '98 season and their, quote-unquote, "Last Dance," uh, where before the season, the GM had basically said that Phil Jackson's gonna be gone after this is it, and, like, this is this team's last chance to win a championship. It was... A l- a lot of the archival footage that was used was basically owned by Jordan, and his-- he participated a lot. Now, that said, it doesn't portray him as, like, glitter and sunshine. Like, it, it does portray him with, with all of his flaws, uh, or at least with a lot of them. So, uh, but a lot has been said about the portrayal of, of Scottie Pippen, and, uh, I don't disagree. Like, the situation where he chose to sit out with, like, two seconds left in the game and not j- not, not jump in there for that last play.
22:11 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
22:11 Chad
Um, I think that was ni- that was '94. That was the season after Jordan left, um, where Scottie was ostensibly the leader of that team, right?
22:20 Patrick
Right.
22:20 Chad
And for him to sit out in a, the most crucial moment of the season does say a lot. Um, and then he, uh, I think in '98, in '97, '98, he held out some surgery until the season started. He didn't do it in the off-season. He waited till the season started to have his, his, uh, surgery. And I think those definitely-
22:39 Patrick
Which is, which is why Pippen... But, but that's, it's important to note, that's why Pippen couldn't be that team's leader. Because for Pippen, it was all about Pippen, and for a leader, it's not all about the leader. It can't be.
22:50 Chad
Well, well, a part of Pippen's particular circumstance is that he signed a long-term contract, and given the, um, contribution to the team, he... Like, the whole, the whole economic environment of the NBA changed between the first year of his, that contract and when it, the last year. So he was making nothing-
23:15 Patrick
Because of Jordan
23:15 Chad
... uh, having won five championships. Well, he was making nothing because he signed a con- a long-term contract in, like, '91, and over time, that started to wear on him, and he was getting frustrated that he was part of this cr- this dynasty and he was a major contributor to it, but he wasn't getting paid. Probably didn't help that Jordan didn't really push, uh, anything. Like, Jordan had, um, Jordan had commented publicly on if Phil Jackson wasn't back, that he wasn't gonna be back either.
23:46 Patrick
Mm.
23:46 Chad
He never made such statements about Pippen. Um, and it's possible that some of that was because of the, you know, the small things that he'd done, the, the holding out at the end of that fourth quarter and, you know, some of the other, uh, issues where he, he had kind of shown that he wasn't as a, a 100% devoted to the team like Jordan would want. Um, all that to say, I don't disagree with you about Pippen, but I think there probably is a little bit more nuance than the documentary, uh, showed.
24:17 Patrick
I think you could take this from the story of the documentary that during the time, Jordan didn't feel like Pippen was necessary, right?After the fact, looking back on it, hindsight Jordan feels like Pippen was an important part of it right? So I, so I think some of that played in to how Jordan interacted with Pippen or how important Jordan thought Pippen was at that time. But ultimately, what was surprising to me is, you know Pippen has always seemed like Batman's Robin right? And the reality is, is that he was not as dependable as I think I expected him to be in, in watching that. Um, you know there were, there were other players that were a little bit more like the rock and foundation in, in those, in those... I mean Steve Kerr for example. Um, you know Steve Kerr was, was one of the best interviews I think in the documentary for me, uh, because it... he just talked about how playing with Jordan rose his level of game and rose his level of leadership. Um, and, and now he's, you know obviously coaching, uh, one of the greatest organizations that we have in today's current basketball world. Um, so I, I think it's, I think it's very interesting to look at that, but y- we still gotta get back to Jordan and his leadership style, and I, I wanna answer another question on this is does Jordan's leadership style in sports or in business work today? Can you get away with that leadership style today?
25:47 Chad
I think that it's... This is a good question. I think the first question is, which we've kind of touched about, is, is it a prerequisite for, for the highest levels of achievement? Um, I, I, I don't know that we'll be able to fully say yes or no because, uh, there's a lot of examples where that kind of mentality did drive a team or an organization to a level of success or achievement that had not been achieved previously. Can that happen today? This is a much different environment even in, in the past couple of years, um, in terms of the, the, or just our society's willingness to put up with that kind of treatment. There have been a lot of news stories recently about some of these sort of unicorn tech firms and just the absolute toxic culture that's, uh, that pervades them, like Uber, uh, you know, things, things like that where, um... And also the, uh, the Theranos. You know what I'm talking about? The, uh-
26:51 Patrick
Yes. Yeah
26:51 Chad
... Elizabeth Holmes and, uh, like the blood testing company.
26:54 Patrick
Yeah. Is she in prison?
26:55 Chad
I don't know.
26:56 Patrick
I think she, I think she's-
26:56 Chad
Probably. But yeah, like her insatiable drive to produce, uh, world-changing technology was... had t- like horrible consequences, real world consequences for people-
27:09 Patrick
Mm-hmm
27:10 Chad
... because they were getting faulty blood tests as a result of, uh, her basically trying to create a Steve Jobs style reality distortion field.
27:18 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
27:18 Chad
And, and just viewing herself in, in that role. And so that's probably a secondary question we should talk about is what are the downsides to idealizing this, uh, this mentality? But, uh, to your question, in today's society is that even still possible? I, I don't think we've shifted enough yet where people would be too sensitive, uh, generally speaking, that they just wouldn't allow someone like Jordan to come in and, uh, and dictate a certain standard, even if that meant he was doing it by being a jerk. I, I don't think we're quite there yet. I don't know. What do you think?
27:58 Patrick
Uh, you know I, I think our generation, you know the, the mid-30s to early 40s generation of folks that are out there, we were raised in a very different environment than this Jordan documentary shows, right? We, we were the, the generation of fun fair, positive soccer. That's what I always bring up and talk about, where it's okay if you don't win, kinda everybody gets a medal. What we're seeing today I think in that generation is you, you see a, a larger separation between the high performers and the low performers, um, because there's a whole subset that believes that you don't have to, uh, you don't necessarily have to perform to be successful. And-
28:43 Chad
So let's look... W- I've done zero research on this, but let's just look, let's keep this in the sports realm and look at, um, someone like Tom Brady. Tom Brady is what? 41, 42 now.
28:55 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
28:56 Chad
My guess is that Tom Brady is very similar to Michael Jordan in terms of the expectations that he sets on the people he plays with.
29:04 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
29:05 Chad
He's also performed as well as Michael Jordan, as much as I hate to admit it. Uh, you know he- he's got like five or six Super Bowl rings. He's, he's been to like 40 of them. Um, but compare that to some of the younger quarterbacks in, in the NFL, like the Russell Wilsons, um, Dak Prescotts, uh, Lamar Jackson. Is there anything about these younger guys having a, having that mentality? I, I can't recall reading anything about them be- having like a dictatorial or authoritarian streak, uh, in the locker room.
29:40 Patrick
Well, the big thing with Brady is, is his level of work ethic, right? Uh, Peyton Manning was known to have that too. But that level... You don't read anything about Dak being... working out for 14 hours a day and requiring his wide receivers to be there with him as well, right? You, you don't, you don't read people like Edelman talking about Dak Prescott like he, you know, he did about Brady, right? You don't see, you don't see a receiver there... I mean, you, you read some things about Dak where, "He throws me a good ball." Like that's the best thing people say about Dak. It's, it's not about how he's watching video for just obscene amounts of hours a day or how he's making people work outside of their normal work hours. I mean, Brady just straight up, like if you don't come throw a ball with him in the middle of summer, he's not gonna throw it to you in the season.
30:30 Chad
So what does that potentially portend then for the sort of greatness that we have seen in sports in particular? I know this is not a sports podcast, this is just sort of a vehicle for, uh, having this discussion about leadership. But if our generation so Brady's a few years older than us, um, the quarterbacks we just talked about are quite a bit younger but if that generation is does not have the same mentality, uh, the same competitive s- like, drive to achieve that level of greatness, is that... I mean, are we, are we likely to not even see that kind of success again?
31:10 Patrick
No, I, I don't, I don't think that's the case. I just don't think you're gonna see, um, uh... I think it'd be easier to rise to the top for those individuals that are there, 'cause maybe, you know, culturally you don't have as much of it, right? Um, I, I- you're still gonna have somebody who's got a competitive seed in them, who's, who's gonna have that drive. That, that, that's gonna happen in, in-
31:30 Chad
Does... so it makes it easier for, for a Jordan-style mentality to achieve greatness then?
31:36 Patrick
A- absolutely.
31:38 Chad
Because the-
31:38 Patrick
Because-
31:38 Chad
Across the board, the bar for competitive nature is lower.
31:42 Patrick
I mean, just look at-
31:43 Chad
So one thing that I noticed, one thing that I noticed coming out of grad school, uh, we went to a, a top MPA program, and, you know, getting into the public sector, especially getting into a big city, the one thing that I noticed was how easy it was to differentiate yourself if you just worked really hard and did good work. Like, if you brought a, a very go-getter attitude, y- you got noticed because there were so many other people... and I, th- this sounds worse than I'm probably int- this probably sounds worse than I'm intending it to sound, but there were just so many other people that were kind of phoning it in that it was easier for you to be recognized as someone who could be a high achiever.
32:27 Patrick
And as you rose up in your career, you either had people who jumped on that bus with you or got out of the way of your bus. Especially in larger cities, you see that a lot.
32:36 Chad
So maybe it's not the case, maybe it's not the case that it is our generation h- was raised with the, the, the, you know, happy dance soccer teams and the everyone gets a trophy mentality. Maybe it's not the case that that will translate into lower overall quality of performance because you'll still have some people with the Jordan mentality, and it'll be even easier for them to achieve levels of greatness. Is that kinda your argument?
33:04 Patrick
Yeah, I mean, that, that's, that's my argument. And, you know, my argument would be is that you, you, you gotta think about when Jordan played, who else was playing in the league at that point, right? You're talking about Jordan-
33:16 Chad
Hakeem
33:16 Patrick
... you're talking... you, Olajuwon, Barkley, Malone, Magic was still in the league, Larry Bird at the end of his career. I just don't think you have all of those individuals, right? So it's easier to rise, it's, it's easier to stand out because maybe you have more people that are, that are phoning it in. But the reality is, is that, um, I, I think that that competitive mentality, that drive, um, it's easier to manage with that competitive mentality and drive because it's easier to identify who wants to be with you and who doesn't. And that doesn't mean you have to be a jerk, though. I wanna be clear, I was not a jerk as a boss, I don't think. Hopefully there's not some social media comments about, "He was the meanest guy I ever worked for." But, you know, I, I, I don't think that ha- you have to care about the person that works for you. I would just push for as much as I could get out of an employee, always.
34:10 Chad
Okay, so let's try to kinda bring this back full circle to some sort of practical application for our listeners who are not playing competitive basketball. If the, if the argument that we're, that we're kind of making here is that high achievement, at least to some extent, requires a, um, a level of focus and dedication to your craft that a lot of the people that you are working with are not going to have, and that requires kind of pulling them along and, and pushing them to achieve more than, uh, than they think that they can and to, uh, to, uh, perform at a level that is satisfactory for your standards, how do we actually do that in the city environment? Like, what do we need to be careful of in terms of, um, you know, going too far? Like, Jordan got into fights in practice, like we ca- we're not gonna do that as a city manager.
35:07 Patrick
That's, yes, that's not gonna happen.
35:09 Chad
So, so what do you need to balance that competitive mentality or that drive for excellence? How do you balance that in an actual office environment? Like, what can managers do to push people but not be jerks to them?
35:25 Patrick
I, I... look, I, I think it's, it's... it all starts with the leader themselves, right? Does the leader in that organization work as hard as they expect everybody else to work? That's the very first thing that it starts with. I always created a shortlist of managers that I would work for, um, based on that. Do they work as hard as I work? Uh, and from a leadership perspe- standpoint, am I asking somebody to do something that I wouldn't do myself? There was nothing on that court that Jordan asked somebody to do that he wouldn't do himself. Nothing was beneath Jordan. He would run. He was not Iverson, right? This was not, "Practice? I don't need to practice." Like, that... he practiced, and he fought hard. And in a, in a work environment from a leadership standpoint, you've got to work hard to show other people that that is the level of expectation that you have within your organization, and I think that's, that's how you translate this to an office environment. And, and you could translate that into customer service. If you have an expectation of how people treat customers, then you have to treat customers that way as a leader. If you have an expectation that, uh, that your employees get to work-At a specific point in time, then you need to be there at a specific point in time. Whatever those expectations are, you, you have to be able to live up to the same expectation that they are. Now that-- I, I wanna talk about the opposite side of that equation, right? The opposite side of that equation is if you're one of those bosses who doesn't take vacation, your employees are gonna feel bad about taking vacation. So I was always specific to take vacation because I wanted my employees to understand that their families were important, that vacations were important, all those things were important. But everything is driven based on what that leader does. If you have weak leadership, you'll have a weak organization. My two cents.
37:17 Chad
Yeah. I think that, um, one thing that I would say that could help balance the sort of competitive drive is just empathy, being able to, to realize that espec-especially in... It's one thing when you're, you're a professional basketball player and the other 10 guys on your team are also professional basketball players, they have devoted their lives to getting to the NBA, versus when you're working for a city and a lot of your employees are working for the city because that's who was hiring, and they may not have the same passion for city building and city management, uh, that, that you have. So certainly work on-
38:03 Patrick
Can we hire those people, though?
38:04 Chad
Well-
38:05 Patrick
I mean, honest question to you
38:06 Chad
... sometimes you don't have a choice.
38:07 Patrick
Sometimes you-
38:07 Chad
I mean, I don't think they, I don't think you're hiring that person as an ACM, but you're probably hiring someone like that in the street department or the parks department, uh, you know, to, to push a mower. They may not have a strong, like, civic sense of, um, "I'm helping my community by keeping my parks and facilities mowed." It may be, in a lot of circumstances, that this is a job that was available and this is what my job is.
38:35 Patrick
A city that I've been incredibly impressed with from a, just an outsider looking in, and I don't know many people that work there, I know a couple, but just from a leadership standpoint of showing what you are to do, even, even for the person who's out there laying an asphalt road or somebody who's mowing a park, is Pflugerville. I see it time and time again on social media, in people's emails, all over. I see a leader who's leading and individuals behind the scenes that are following that lead and that performance level and creating a culture of high performance. And in my belief, when you create a culture of high performance, you can hire somebody who doesn't maybe have that drive, but if they don't develop that drive once you hire them, you can't keep them. Is that-
39:23 Chad
Yeah, but what my-- But my comment is that you have to have empathy with that person at the initial stages.
39:29 Patrick
Agreed.
39:30 Chad
'Cause we're talking about p-pushing people to get on board with, with your mentality, right? And, and sort of bringing them into the fold. But you can't do that if you just expect that on, that every single person is going to have the same starting point as you. You have to have empathy that some of them aren't going to and, and use that to sort of build a bridge between where they are and where you want them to be.
39:54 Patrick
I think that's an extremely valid point.
39:56 Chad
Yeah. If you just come in and say, "Well, everyone that works for this city should obviously be civic-minded and be doing this, uh, you know, for altruistic reasons, and if you're not, then you're gone," that's not gonna work. You have to, you have to explain to every single person from top to bottom the values of the organization and the benefits that, uh, you know, the, of, of, of service and that mowing a park is public service. It's not just-
40:22 Patrick
Well, to be clear-
40:23 Chad
... a job
40:23 Patrick
... cor-correct. To be clear, though, we're not saying you should do, you should work for a city out of altru-altruistic duties, right? We, we believe that people in cities should get paid. We believe they should get paid what the worth of that work that they do is, and in some occasions, we believe that those employees are not paid to the level of worth that they provide. Now, some of that is, is we have a lot of employees not doing a lot of work, and if we sh-change those structures, we could actually hire, hire, we could, we could have people on our team that are higher performers. Fair assessment?
40:56 Chad
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We've talked quite a bit on this ep-podcast about, uh, quality over quantity. But yeah. But so that's, that's my main comment is when you're, when you're leading at an organization where everyone isn't always coming from the exact same starting point, they haven't necessarily dedicated their entire life to getting that job, you do have to have empathy with them and, a-and understand where they're coming from in order to bring them sort of into the fold.
41:25 Patrick
I, I agree. I wanna end with-
41:26 Chad
Someone who made it to the NBA, someone who made it to the NBA has devoted their life to getting to the NBA. They are there to, to play and perform at a high level to win championships. That's not always the case in city government. So you, you just have to understand that and, and work around that when you're trying to, to bring people into your mentality.
41:48 Patrick
A hundred percent, I agree with that. I wanna end with this, 'cause this is a question that you get and I get a lot, uh, which is, you know, how, how hard was it to create a company while you were working in cities, right? From a leadership standpoint, how, how did y'all do that? How did you, how did you handle that? And my response to that is always, "We did a lot of hard work." There was a lot of hard work. We went to work every day at our city job, and we worked our city job. And we came home at night with families, and when they went to bed or when everything else was going on, you sat at home and you coded your life away, and I sent odd emails to people trying to sell a software. Greatest thing that ever happened to me was when Google allowed me to delay my send until, like, nine o'clock the next morning, so I didn't look like I was sending emails at 12:30 at night. But the reality is, is that that hard work, whether it's in an organization, it's on a sports team, it's building a company, it's hard.It's not easy. It actually takes a drive, a competitive drive, and that's what this Jordan documentary showed me. That's why I was excited about talking about it. That's why I was pushing you for three months to finish it up.
43:00 Chad
Okay, so I've got two totally unrelated... well, related, but not apropos-
43:06 Patrick
Mm-hmm
43:06 Chad
... uh, comments to leave with. So I was going back through the Steve Jobs book by Walter Isaacson and just kinda refreshing on some of the notes I had taken, 'cause I read it, like, almost 10 years ago, and one thing that really st- stuck out to me is the similarities between Steve Jobs and Michael Scott, which sounds kinda strange to say, right? I, I don't, I don't... Are you... You're not much of an Office fan, are you?
43:29 Patrick
I've, I've watched The Office quite a bit.
43:31 Chad
Okay.
43:31 Patrick
But I'm not a huge fan. Uh, like I, I can't quote one-liners from The Office.
43:35 Chad
Okay. So, so Steve Jobs was very famous for being, um, all or nothing. Like, you were either an A player or you were, you know, crap. Um, something that you made was either the most amazing thing ever or it was totally worthless. And there's an episode where, uh, Michael and Jim are trying to apportion a modest pay raise among the employees, and it's just been a really hard day, and so Michael asks Jim how he's doing, and Jim's like, "Eh, I'm probably about a four." Um, and so Michael's like, "Well, what are you normally?" And Jim's like, "I'm a six normally." And Michael goes, "Oh, wow, yeah, today I'm a zero, but normally I'm at a 10." It's like, wow, Steve Jobs and Michael Scott have quite a bit in common that I didn't ever, didn't ever expect. But, uh, the, the other comment is, watching this documentary, it's amazing how important sports is for nostalgia to us, and just, um, the romantic aspect of sports, it's incredible. Like, okay, so their fourth championship that they won in, like, '96, that went to game six, which happened to be on Father's Day. And, uh, Jordan's dad had been killed, you know, a couple of years earlier. That was the f- I think the first championship that he won after that happened. He took, took two years off, uh, to go play baseball, came back, won the championship on Father's Day, which in and of itself is just coincidental. Like, it doesn't really have any meaning beyond what we sort of attach to it, but when you just... when you've watched the documentary and you've seen the, the progression of the story, just to have it all sort of come back and have that happen, it's just, it's just awesome. It's just- it's what I love about sports. There's a line in Moneyball where, uh, Brad Pitt says, "How can you not be romantic about baseball?"
45:30 Patrick
Mm-hmm.
45:31 Chad
That- that's like, it just gets me every time. So that was just one thing that I took from the documentary, too, that had nothing to do with leadership, is just how important sports are for all of us and that romantic element. It's just kinda cool.
45:42 Patrick
Yeah, you know, I... Sports are an extremely important side of... for me. I mean, just they taught me a lot of life lessons. Uh, whether I was playing soccer or baseball or football or whatever it may be, there was a ton of what gave me foundation on, you know, in addition, obviously, to my faith, drove me to get where I am today, that helped me get where I am today. So, uh, I think they play a huge role, and I think they teach us a lot from a leadership perspective. And this Jordan documentary teaches you a lot of what to do and what not to do. I thought it was a great documentary, and, and I, I will probably try to watch it once a year every year.
46:17 Chad
Cool. Well, hopefully, uh, through all of that there's some takeaways for, uh, for city management. Uh, but either way, I had a good time talking about it, and thanks for the recommendation to watch it.
46:29 Patrick
Yep. W- the next thing we're not gonna talk about is Stranger Things, though. We'll stay away from that.
46:33 Chad
You don't like Stranger Things?
46:34 Patrick
I've never watched it.
46:36 Chad
Oh, why not? I bet there are some gr-
46:38 Patrick
I just haven't.
46:38 Chad
Oh man, I bet there are some great analogies that could be made for the Upside Down in, uh, in city management, but yeah. I guess we'll, we'll have to leave that for another time.
46:48 Patrick
I don't even, I don't even get it 'cause I've never seen it, so yeah. But thanks for joining us on ZacCast. We're glad you guys could come on and listen to us. We don't always talk about city stuff. Sometimes we get off topic with this Jordan documentary, uh, but we're glad you could join us. It's a great documentary if you hadn't seen it yet. Uh, it's called The Last Dance. It was on ESPN. I think it's streaming on Netflix now. So, uh, go out there, take a look at... I think it's eight episodes, and, and it's a really good documentary to see. Until next time. Bye, Chad.
47:17 Chad
Bye, Patrick.
47:35 Patrick
Well, guys, thanks for joining us on ZachX, uh, or let me try that again.
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