So I just watched an episode of Fresh Prince-

Of Bel-Air?

... where, yes, where they go back to Philly.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause, you know, they live in LA, which is, like, the car-centric city.

Mm-hmm.

So they go back to Philly, and everyone.... Like, Phil- Will's happy to go back, 'cause his mom lives there and whatnot.

Yeah.

But everyone else is like, "Uh, I gotta go to Philly." You know, it's like, "Uh, trash city. Um, can't stay in the small house. I gotta go find, like, a five-star hotel." Anyway, after, like, a day or two, they kind of acclimate, and, like, Philip and Vivian, they have to run some errands, so they're just- they just go for a walk, walking around the neighborhood. They find a brunch spot. They find some interesting stores. They're just enjoying the city, right? And when they get back to the house, they're just so hap- so happy and content. Uh, it was just an interesting contrast between that environment that they were in, and then how they typically act when they're in LA. There's just so many episodes about traffic, and cars, and how, you know, awful all that is. But to have this sort of contrast, uh, and this sort of take on urbanism that I was not expecting in a random Fresh Prince episode, so it was kind of interesting.

Have you ever been to Philadelphia?

I have been to Philadelphia, yes.

It's actually a pretty nice city, downtown.

I like, I like it.

It's very pretty. Uh, it's got-

It's one of the-

... a really interesting mix-

... oldest, um, one of-

- of old and new

... it's one of the oldest designed cities. The plan for Philly was from, like, the 1660s.

Yeah. It's pretty-

Thomas Holmes, I believe.

Wow!

You know that he originally planned the, like, central part of the city around four, like s- like, um, not central parks, but, like, four sort of anchor parks, like corner parks.

Mm-hmm.

And then the rest of the grid was based around that. But he was expecting it to be one acre, like, estate homes.

Do you know what a specialization in urban planning is? I, I-

Uh, s-

... have that from Texas A&M, and I didn't know any of what you just said right there. It's funny to me that you are significantly more planning nerded than I am sometimes. But a specialization in planning basically just means, uh, I needed it for a resume, and I didn't actually get a minor, 'cause I was one class short. That's what it means.

Did you get your minor in history?

No, I got my minor in business administration-

Business, okay

... and accounting. Yeah.

Well, that's working out for you now.

It worked out well, didn't it? Yeah. So, um, I feel like we need-

I mean-

... to go ahead and do the intro, since this is probably all gonna make it on the podcast.

Okay. Well, g- that'll be an interesting way to just start-

Yeah

... just talking about Fresh Prince.

Let's, let's jump right into the intro.

Okay, well, h- having said all of that, welcome to ZacCast. Greetings, all of that jazz. I'm Chad. That's Patrick. Uh, this is your official podcast for local government nerdery. Uh, so I guess let's just... You wanna keep on going with that topic?

Yeah, let's go.

What else do you want to do?

Let's go. Are we going right into downtowns? I thought we were gonna talk about hair first, and then we'd jump into downtowns.

That's fine.

Okay.

When you mentioned downtown, that's what I thought of, was this episode that I had just watched.

Nice.

And, um, yeah, so... But the only reason that I... So you had, like, a planning specialization. My planning college-

They don't actually call it that. I just had a professor who told me, "Yeah, just list it like that on your resume."

That's, that's fine.

Yeah.

Lie, whatever. No one's gonna check it.

Nobody checked it, and at this point, it doesn't matter anymore.

So, um, but, I mean, my knowledge is I, I actually don't really like planning. Um, I never did gr- like, coming into the field.

Mm-hmm.

Like, we argued about the merits of zoning for a decade-

Wow

... before, like, while we worked together. Um-

You've finally come around on zoning, though, haven't you?

No, I actually like it less.

Oh, wow, okay.

I think zoning is unconstitutional, and I think that there's a good chance that we might have Euclid versus Ambler overturned.

Wow! Hey, hold o- hold on for a second so I can beep all that out. Ah.

All right, sorry, go ahead.

Yeah.

So the problem with zoning is that, like, the idea behind, uh, like, public s- health and welfare-

Mm-hmm

... like, that is a legitimate governmental interest, but what zoning actually is in practice is, has nothing to do with that. So-

Okay

... what it has become is much more of a taking than any sort of, like, uh, public safety, health, and welfare, uh, instrument. That's just my opinion.

Okay. This is a very interesting conversation. So, um, so-

Let's skip around then. T- tell me about your haircut story, and then we'll jump into the-

All right, so then we'll go into downtowns. All right.

Yeah.

I'm gonna have to come back to that.

We're, we're, we're gonna skip all over... Like, this is gonna be one of the most schizophrenic episodes that we've had, 'cause-

It's true

... starting with, uh, like, halfway into a conversation, now we're gonna talk about hair.

Why did we, why did we not have a podcast last week? We were-

Uh, two weeks ago, we were, we had our, um, s- management retreat.

Oh, we did.

Yeah.

We were planning for the future of Zack. Okay, that's why.

Yeah.

Okay. Very nice. All right.

So-

Well-

Yeah

... let's talk haircuts. One, I noticed that you got a haircut.

I did, Monday.

Okay, which doesn't happen very often, I feel like.

I actually got a haircut... You, you are correct.

Yeah.

I wait way too long.

Uh-huh.

I got a haircut much earlier, probably about... I, I waited, like, half as long as I normally do.

Well, so before I met you, you had long hair.

When I was in college, I did have long hair, yes.

Not in grad school, though. You'd cut it before we got to grad school.

I cut it before I met my wife, yes.

Okay.

Which was fortunate, because if she hadn't-

Before you met her or after you met her?

I cut it about three months before I met her.

Okay, 'cause she probably would never have dated you with long hair.

Oh, never.

Okay.

Yeah.

She wasn't into hippies?

I mean, we're- I'm talking, like, shoulder-length hair.

Oh, I know.

Super thick.

Can, can we go ahead and post the famous picture of, the drum line picture-

I will not be posting that picture

... in the show notes?

No.

So I used to use this at City Hall all the time when Chad would get on my nerves. I'd go show everybody the picture of Chad on the drum line.

That's okay. I would show everyone the picture of you holding that furry little cat.

The cat!

At about 10 years old.

That's the one my brother posts on my birthday every year on Facebook to say happy birthday to me. I'm allergic to cats now, which is the irony of that. But, um, yeah, weird. Uh, so Chad got a haircut. It doesn't happen very often, so I do notice when he gets haircuts. Um, it's the... Uh, you know the butler from Mr. Deeds?

... Uh, no, never seen it.

You've never seen Mr.-

Is that a- that's an Adam Sandler movie, correct?

Yes!

Yeah, never seen it.

Okay, so there's the butler in Mr. Deeds, and he's like, he always, like, shows up in the creepiest of, of atmospheres, right? Like, you've seen the pictures of, like, Joe Biden, who sniffs hair, like President Biden sniffing hair?

Yes, I have seen those.

Right? Yeah.

Yes, I've seen those memes.

So, so, like, my crazy thing is, like, I always notice people's haircuts, like, always. So you remember that in the office, like, like, Shelley would go get her hair done, and I would always, you know, see... I'd be like, "Oh, you dyed your hair," or, "You did this with it," or, you know, like, I don't know. I just... I could always notice hair. It's just the thing I've always been able to notice.

Yeah. My wife got her hair done last week.

You didn't notice.

I knew she was going to get it-

Mm-hmm

... and I still didn't notice. So it was, like, an hour into seeing her that I was like: "Oh, your hair looks great, by the way." So I finally remembered.

Did you put a reminder on your iPhone?

No, it just, like, slowly came back to me.

Okay, but I, I do want the podcast to know that that is something Chad would do just to... He, he... You take those extra steps-

Oh, yes

... like give yourself a reminder on your iPhone that your wife got a haircut to say that her hair looks good.

Yeah, so I do not have the ability to hold a bunch of things in my head at one time.

Is it that, or is it-

It's just-

... the Sheldon side of you? I think it's more the Sheldon side of you. It's just things that you don't normally notice.

No, man, I'll just, I'll forget. Well, the, uh, that, that, a little bit of that, too.

Okay.

But-

It's kind of like when somebody passes gas, you can't smell it.

Well, I can't smell anyway.

Yeah, I know. That's makes a good point.

So-

Yeah.

Yeah.

I used to... It'd be so fun.

So how many times did you fart in the truck on the way down to our trip?

On the way to grad school?

That, too, yeah.

Man, it was so hard, dude. It was so tough because, you know, I worked, um, uh, I worked down by La Grande Plaza, right? Like, remember-

Mm-hmm

... I had the two offices? Technically, three, like, one at City Hall, one at La Grande, and then we had one at what was called the Tindall Building when I was in Fort Worth. And, uh, but I spent most of my time down at La Grande, and man, the food, dude, the food was so zesty. And then you'd have to deal with me in the truck. I'm sorry. So anyways, but sidetrack, do you know the difference between a normal haircut and going to a barber?

Uh, I guess just based on the fact that you're asking this question, that I don't.

Uh, okay, so, so there are different licenses, right? There's a cosmetology license, which is, like, you can cut hair, right? And then there's, like, a barber's license, where they can cut hair, and they can do, you know, like, other things, like, you know, noses, ears, shave-

Mm-hmm

... like, a, a warm shave. Anyway, so my wife... I take my kids to the local shop, right? Like, the Great Clips or the Sports Clips, okay? And, and to me, a Houston kid, and I hope the Houston people realize this, but you go get a fade in Houston, it's, like, 12 bucks, right? Like, and, and they're doing, like, five guys in an hour. It's just, you know, very common. I think when you live in a humid environment like that, like, you're never gonna have long hair. Like, everybody just goes to get a fade. And, um, well, here, every time you get a fade, it's kind of different, right? So it's been very difficult for me to find a place to go get my hair cut, and so I take my kids there, too, to get their hair cut. And, and sometimes my kids' hair, they have longer, more beautiful, golden lock hair, right? And sometimes they get butchered. And so my wife has been like: "Hey, you know, my, my hairdresser told me you should go to this new barber shop that's in Aledo." Uh, and it's, like, a small mom-and-pop barber shop, okay? Three chairs, super small, very quaint, with, like, legit barbers, and, and I grew up with that. I, I grew up in Katy, and there was a shop called Barreto Barber, and he... Legit, he cut my hair the very first time. So, like, when I was, like, one and a half or two years old, he cut my hair until I graduated high school. I had the same guy who cut my hair. And when I was in high school, before football games, as Chad would say, before I went to sit the bench and watch us win state championships, um, before football games, we would all go to Barreto Barber, and he would cut our hair, and he would do a straight razor shave on our face, right? Which, if you've never had a straight, straight razor save- shave... Have you, on your face, like, with warm?

Mm-hmm. I mean, I've done it. I've never had someone do it.

Oh.

No, I guess I use a, I use a safety razor.

Yeah, that's not the same.

Not like a straight razor.

No, it's like the straight, like, pulls it out.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know-

Like the Sweeney Todd

... Sweeney Todd, or the thing you get mugged with in a back alley, right? One of those. So anyways, so I went-

Speaking of Philadelphia.

Oh, come on!

I'm just kidding.

Philadelphia's a safe city. So, um, my dad's from Philly, so I gotta be nice to Philly. Um, my cousin actually has a podcast in Philly. He's, like, really into, like, the club scene there. So, so we're gonna get back to haircuts. So I went to the barber, longest story ever, yesterday, the best haircut I've had in my life, an amazing haircut.

It's hard to tell.

But it was-

That's like when my dad says he had a good haircut.

How expensive is too expensive for a haircut, a men's haircut? What is, what is the over-under number on that?

Including tip or before tip?

Including tip.

Um, I cannot get a haircut for less than $22-

Okay, I paid 40-

... which already seems expensive.

I paid 46.

Yeah.

But-

But that's not including tip.

So she cut my hair. Elizabeth was awesome, by the way. She's got a really cool story. I have to get into that later, but she, like, grew up in a really interesting environment. But cut my hair. It was, like, an hour-long experience, and when I got done, she didn't shave my face, but she did straight razor shave on, like, my sideburns, around my ears, and around the back of my neck. I don't know if I'll ever do anything different again. It was, it was, it was-

Yeah

... it was a great experience.

See, so for me, that would be miserable. Like, however wonderful she is, and however great she does-

'Cause somebody talks to you for an hour?

When, when I get a haircut, I want to get in and out. I want to be done as quickly as possible.

No! Don't, don't, don't act like it's you want to get in and out.

Mm-hmm.

You don't want to get exhausted because somebody talks to you for an hour.

... uh, 100%, yes.

Yeah.

Now, I will say that, that I have changed a little bit now that I don't work in an office, because I don't see as many people. So I do find myself... And maybe it's also because I'm just getting older, and that's kind of what you do, is you just, like, talk to people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, like, I would always hate going places with my grandpa because he knew everyone, and like, we'd say we'd go to the grocery store to get donuts, we would be there for an hour and a half because he would just find people and talk to them.

Is that why you avoided lunch with me?

At the grocery store.

All the time?

No-

Lunchtime?

... I can talk to people that I know. It's just, like, people-

Okay.

I, I'm really, really bad at small talk with people I don't know.

Okay.

But I, I find myself talking to, like, cashiers at the gas station that I go, like, down the street.

Okay.

If I stop in to get, like, a Topo Chico or something, I'll... Like, I have a- I have my, like, regular morning cashier, and I know her whole life story.

Okay.

She knows all my kids, so-

Okay, yeah, that's-

I never would've done that, like, 10 years ago.

Yeah, you would never have shared-

No

... outside of, you know-

Yeah

... your-

But I think a combination of COVID and then just working from home has flipped a little bit of a, of a switch for me.

Okay, so that's my... You know, y'all make fun of me for this. Internally, the Zak Team makes fun of me for this, but that's my Chipotle people, right? 'Cause I go to Chipotle, like, three times a week. I know everybody in Chipotle-

Mm

... all my employees, so.

Yeah. Uh, did I tell you about how, um... So my wife goes to Starbucks at least once a day, sometimes twice, and she gets the exact same thing, and it's, it's not, like, a super crazy drink. It's a grande iced skinny vanilla latte with whipped cream.

Okay.

So it's not super crazy.

O- o-

A skinny vanilla latte.

Skinny milk? Okay.

No, skinny vanilla, yeah.

Okay.

Um, but I guess it's unique enough at that store, where all of the people that work there know that that's her drink. So, like, one time, I went to go and get it for her, and when I ordered it at the drive-through, they were like, "Oh, is this for your wife?" Like, I don't, I don't think I've ever said her name, so I'll just, I'll just leave it-

Yeah, yeah

... 'cause I know that some of her clients have listened in the past, and I don't wanna-

Yeah

... go there. But I was like, "Oh, my gosh, people know her just by her drink order."

That's, uh, yeah, that's, that's wild. My, my funny was the kids and my wife were all off of school. My wife, uh, works in public ed, and they were all off of school one day, and so we went... I was working, and I was like, "All right, hey, let's go to Chipotle." You know, it was my typical Chipotle day. And we walk in, and the Chipotle staff was like, "That's your wife?" And I didn't really know how to take that. So-

I think, I think you know how to take it.

Anybody-

I think you're the f- you're the first to say that you out-kinked your coverage, uh, obviously.

Oh, 100% out-kinked my coverage. Uh, but, uh, you know, she was 15, and we were in high school, so... Uh, and for some reason, she just thought I was cuddly.

Katie wasn't as big then, so the options were more limited.

Katie was 6A back then, or 5A big. We didn't have 6A back then, but come on, Katie's always been a big school. There were three high schools-

Yeah

... when I was in high school. Four was added, I think, when I was there.

Yeah.

Now there's 12, crazy. But-

Yeah.

I-

So, so, uh, a couple weeks ago, we, we missed our podcast because we were heading to this, uh, little Zak Tax retreat.

Yep.

You know, trying to just get all in the same room and talk about where we wanna head this year. Um, we had talked about actually, just kinda joked about, like, re- just recording on the phone, like, in the car on the way down there. But it turns out that that day was kind of a crazy day-

Oh, it was nuts

... because sales tax data came out, and there was massive audit corrections across the state. And I think you wanted to just touch on that a little bit.

I mean, first off, you and I trying to get away, 'cause really it was just, it was, it was you and I trying to get away so that we could have a conversation. The car ride was probably the most beneficial both, both directions for a little while. But we've been trying to do that for years, to try to, you know, just kinda get away and coordinate and try to figure out, "Okay, hey, let's, let's, like, have a plan." Um-

Remember the last time we did it, y'all went to Scottsdale, and then everybody got COVID.

That's true, on the way back.

And for some reason, we, like, at the last minute, we had to stop. I think one of our kids got sick.

One of your kids got sick, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and I don't, I don't think your... Like, now all y'all's family members live up in North Texas, it's a little easier for you, but back then, I don't think everybody did, right?

Yeah. Also, I think my wife was pregnant.

Yeah, I think that's also the case.

So-

Yeah, so

... it worked out well that we didn't go.

It's a good thing you've stopped having kids now.

Yeah, no kidding.

What about dogs? You still have dogs?

Still have... No, no, no more dogs.

No more dogs, okay. Uh, Chad is over the legal limit for the amount of dogs you can have in most cities, uh, but, you know, that's okay.

Good thing I don't live in the city.

That's true.

Actually, it's not a good thing. I w- I wish I did, but...

It's, it's hard for you. It's very difficult. Um, so yeah, so we're, we're getting on the road. All of a sudden, I, I... Who reached out to us first? Was it a city, or was it Allison? I think maybe Allison was the one who caught the data first and was like, "Hey, there's something goofy here."

Yeah, I think so.

And then, I mean, at, at that point, it's just like everybody started reaching out as the data hit. Uh, and, and, you know, for those that don't look in the sales tax world, sales tax data hits in Texas, uh, usually on a Wednesday, right? So Wednesday morning, uh, and it's usually the first full week Wednesday of the month. And, um, sales tax hit, they just kind of post it to a website, and the data doesn't come for another week or so, and so it got posted. There was a huge audit adjustment. We can't tell you exactly who the audit adjustment was, but it was, you know, across the state, multiple cities, same taxpayer, uh, and, you know, in the energy sector. We could say that.

I think that's fair.

Okay. So, uh, so we'll say in the energy sector, uh, there was a player that had an audit adjustment. Uh, we have asked lots of questions, uh, to the Comptroller's office. They have been fantastic to work with and continue to be fantastic to work with, and they are still trying to figure it out themselves. Uh, one of the issues that we have in Texas right now, it's something that we really need to address in the legislative session and have some conversations on-... is there is a limit when there's an audit done. So when a state initiates an audit or a city has the state initiate an audit for a taxpayer that should be paying them or is paying them in-incorrectly, one or the other, um, there's a limit on that rollback. I believe that limit's four years, and they can't go any further than that. But there's kind of a loophole in the statute on that, and in the rules, that allows for lawsuits that are filed to roll back even further. And so this audit adjustment, um, goes back- what is the actual term, Chad? It was-

Um, it was 2010 to 2013.

Okay, so we're talking about money that was allocated-

14-year-old, yeah. 14 years ago.

14 years ago, and is now impacting some cities' budgets, uh-

Significantly

... So I mean, by one city's accounting, it's 10% of their entire general fund budget.

Yeah, there were several cities that literally got no allocations this month.

Yeah, and that, they'll probably not have part of an allocation next month, too, to continue-

Mm-hmm

... to cover it, right? So I wanna say this first. I wanna, you know, before we get into what we know at this point-

But j- just to be clear, this was, this was a reallocation.

Correct.

Right.

We, we can't see it all, but we believe it's a full-

Yes

... reallocation.

We can't see every city, but for cities that we have seen, it's the same taxpayer, negative for some, positive for others.

And we don't know why. Right. And it doesn't really make sense to us either, so we're trying to work through that as well. Um, but I wanna say a couple of things before we get into some nitty-gritties on this. One, I wanna say, if you were a city that was negatively impacted by this allocation and you've never gone through this before, the comptroller does have a program where you can, uh, get that money back, and then they will take it out over a payment period, uh, somewhere between usually 36 and 48 months. You can negotiate for length. Uh-

Especially if it's something that's this large.

Yes. They'll offer you 12 months. You can always get more than 12. That's kinda like their general offer on the table. We've dealt with this numerous times with numerous clients, and it's just a, it's a simple phone call, and it's a simple little one-page agreement, uh, that you sign with the Comptroller's Office. It just says, "We're gonna take this out over the next 48 months instead of taking it out over, uh, the single month." So you can get it spread over multiple fiscal years. Um, you know, obviously, for those cities that have huge impacts of, like, 10% or more, it's, it's, it's just a, it's an enormous hit, right? Um, but yeah, I wanna get that out there first because I think it's extremely important to say, "Hey, don't freak out." If it hits you hard, we totally understand. Um, we still are skeptical at this point. I, I, I wanna say that very clearly. I'm not saying that the impact is not actually going to occur or it's not real, I'm just saying that we have our antennas up to... It's just doesn't seem like this was supposed to happen like it happened. Um, and we haven't got an explanation out of the Comptroller's office, and to be fair, the Comptroller's office is not really squared away internally, um, what has happened either. One side of the Comptroller's office is the one who programmed the allocation that way, but that was not actually allocations. Um, you think we can go any deeper than that or kinda keep it there?

No, actually, I was probably gonna even cut short before that point, but yeah-

Okay

... 'cause there are a lot of question marks-

And, and I just-

Trying to answer

... I, I wanna reiterate, right? Now, they get paid 2% of allocations, so they, they should be good at what they do. That's a lot of money. Um, but they're very good to work with.

Yeah.

Okay? So-

It is a lot of money, by the way.

It is a lot of money, and there's a lot of moving parts. There's policy section, there's tax audit section, there's allocations. These are all different large-scale departments within the same, um, you know, Comptroller's office, right? And they all have to work together, and we work with all different aspects of them, and there's good people there, and they're doing hard work. And so, you know, our biggest criticism of this process is these audits should have been notified prior to them being removed from a payment. That's the biggest criticism. The side of the Comptroller's office that we would normally deal with, that would send out that letter, which would be the allocation side, was unaware of the audit adjustments, as, as far as we can tell at this point. We are still asking questions. They are still responding to us on a daily basis, telling us that they're still working through some of those questions, and when we know more, we will share more. So I wanted to put that out there. You got anything else there before I jump-

No

... into the kinda problem with what we have here and what we see on our data side? So I wanna-

Yeah, go for it.

I wanna talk a little bit about the industry that's kinda popped up, and we don't know if this is the case on this audit adjustment, but we've seen it on other audit adjustments. But there's been an industry that's kinda popped up that buys this possible tax reallocation or possible, um, tax reduction. So it, this happens a lot in the oil and gas business. So we have a lot of our cities in the Houston area, cities in East Texas, that are very, uh, oil and gas dependent. We see this a lot. Now, they're typically notified when it happens. So, like, when a lawsuit gets filed, they get notified that a lawsuit was filed, and, you know, just be aware that this money may be, you know, it, it may be, it may get called back. There's nothing, like, statutory though, that requires the Comptroller's office to do that. We think there probably ought to be something there. I, I do personally. Chad, we've kinda talked about that. I think you do, too, but-

So to notify them?

Yeah, so when, when-

Yes

... when the Comptroller's office gets sued-

It's, it's quite simple to just-

For an allocation

... send a letter or an email.

Yeah, anybody who's impacted should be notified there's been a lawsuit filed. The problem is, is that some of these-

I feel like there should probably also be some kind of website where you can see all of the pending lawsuits-

So-

... because imagine how many people on your staff from 2010 are still there.

And that's where the problem comes in, though, because a lot of these lawsuits are, uh, private. They're not public. They're not publicly filed. They go through a very private process because it's, um, because it's sales tax, individual business sales tax data, right? And so they're able to keep that.... private. I think we should at least notify, just like we have a 380 agreement section on the comptroller's website that says, "A 380 agreement with this company is here," right? We should at least have something that says, "We have pending lawsuits with these taxpayers who are suing to get their taxes back." Right? That's it. We don't have to give the tax amount-

Yeah

... but we need to notify what jurisdictions that they're suing and, and who, because those jurisdictions are not aware. They're not a part of the lawsuit, 'cause the comptroller is a state- it's- sales tax goes at the state level. There's no, there's no local jurisdiction on, on sales tax. So I think it would be good to notify there. But there's a whole industry that we really need to talk about. It's kind of an underbelly, that they go in, especially in the oil and gas companies, and they will find that the oil and gas companies paid sales tax that they shouldn't have paid. And they'll buy that liability from them, right? So they'll go in there and they'll say, "Hey, you paid a million dollars in sales tax, and you really shouldn't have. We'll pay you 20 cents on the dollar. So we'll pay you $200,000 if you let us go sue to get this back for you." So you kind of assign all that over. Um, and so sometimes those audit payments are going, uh, to a different company than what the audit payments came in as, right? Um, so that's kinda there, too. So there's a whole industry that's kinda set up to, to do that, that are law firms, hedge fund-backed type stuff, that get into that as well. And we're seeing more and more of that. And I think when it was one-off, and we only saw maybe one or two of these occasionally a year, and it didn't really have an impact, it wasn't that big a deal, but it's just becoming more commonplace. And so, think we're gonna have to have this conversation. It's just like property tax, though. It's such a complicated issue, trying to find a state legislature that a- a state legislator that actually understands the issue is super hard, right? Um, and so it's, it's gonna have to be comptroller's office-led. They're gonna have to go in there and say... And I think this could be that one adjustment where we're like, "Okay, you know, this is such a sizable adjustment. We don't really know why it happened yet, but it's such a sizable adjustment impacting so many people that we need to go ahead and, you know, create some ground rules or some barriers here to, to keep this from happening in the future." Thoughts?

I was trying to, as you were talking about that, I was trying to think whether the property tax side or the sales tax side is less understood in the legislature. And at first, my immediate thought was, like, absolutely, property tax is far less understood.

Mm.

But then I remembered some of the hearings that we had-

Sourcing?

... uh, regarding the sourcing and the nexus.

Oh, yeah.

And, and it made me question whether or not that initial, um, that initial judgment was wrong.

That-

I think it's probably still, still correct, but yeah, the, like, it's a lot closer than I initially was thinking about.

And I'm not being critical of this, the legislators-

It's complex

... super complex.

They have a lot of issues that they're trying to deal with.

Yeah.

It's just one of many things.

Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a very difficult thing to, to try to, to... It's just very, it's, it's very difficult to understand, especially when you get into the rulemaking side. Not just the legislative side, but the rulemaking side. 'Cause you have the statute that says what sales tax should, should be charged on and how it should be charged, and things like that. And then you have a whole separate rulemaking authority that the comptroller's office has that just has years and years of historical rulemaking in it, and it's layer upon layer. And so, um, you know, and you have industries that are dependent on that taxation system to be stable. Uh, so yeah, it's, it's super complicated. I just remember when we went through the sourcing conversation, we always thought that, you know, in a utopian world, this would be perfect. Yeah, of course, you would want to source sales tax to its point of destination. Like, that, that would be the easiest thing in the world to do, but that's not how the economy in Texas has grown over the last 40, 50 years. So it's- you know, you're not really set up that way to be able to provide services in a manner that would be, that would work in a pure destination format. So I don't know. Little by little, it seems like we're-

Well, that's why we kinda came up with the change of possession verbiage.

Yeah.

Right? 'Cause it's kind of shows how the two different sides of the coin aren't that dissimilar. Like, if we look at origin sourcing and destination sourcing, we think, "Oh, these are, like, vastly different mechanisms for determining nexus," but really they're not.

Yeah, you know, like, sales operations and business operations and things like that, a lot of that, uh, still survived some of the rule change that occurred, and so there's, there's still just, like, this... There's still a little bit of a goofy hybrid nature to, uh, to it.

Yeah.

But-

And then, like, if you only have one l- physical lo- like, one office or one location, you can source all your sales tax there.

Yes, and correct. So now that, now that... So, like, you know, lawnmowing companies-

Like landscapers

... landscapers, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, now that we're in California, though, I'm curious, um, can we say this out loud? Texas d- actually does it better.

I was gonna say, for how complicated things are and how crazy things get sometimes, you guys have it, you have it better-

Yeah, 100%

... it do in California. It is a very just needlessly complicated system, and we're trying to kind of figure out how to, how to look at both Texas and California in a sort of more abstract and consistent way, and just trying to, like, fit that square peg in a round hole has been, has been interesting.

Now, um, you know in Texas how we had the argument about, like, uh, building codes and how trades were pushing s- building codes a certain way to make things more expensive? Like, this is-

Sure

... it became a whole thing here. The conspiracy theorist in me is, is, is really starting to contemplate that, uh, California's really been driven by the consultant side on some of the rulemaking. The more complicated you make it, the more dependent you have to be on a consultant. And that's the-

Yeah

... city manager in me talking, obviously, not the consultant. So, but it seems like there are just a couple of things that are goofy-... in the way that they do it, and it's not really making communities any more money or any less money, it's just overly complicated. So-

Yeah.

I may be wrong on that, but I, I think-

It is certainly overly complicated.

It's, it's very overly complicated, and it's gonna, it's gonna take me years to understand it. I mean, there's, there's no doubt it's gonna take me years to understand it. So are you ready to move on to downtowns?

Yeah. So we're, uh... We don't say- we won't say who this was, but we were heading to a city in Texas for this retreat.

Yep.

Coincidentally, that city has reached out to, uh, to you, Patrick, and asked you a question that we thought might spur a little bit interesting conversation.

Yeah, basically, I got asked the question... You know, we don't- uh, I was asked the question: Do we, anywhere in the software, compare geographic regions from other cities? Uh, it's an interesting question. Sounds like a future thing to discuss in ZactX. Uh, but we don't-

Sounds like a future opt-in feature.

Opt-in feature, yeah, 100%, right. Um, and so I think, uh, the answer to the question obviously is no, we don't, because it's confidential data and we can't share it across cities. But when you look at things from, um, you know, obviously from a perspective of-

When you aggregate them enough-

When you aggregate them enough-

... you can... Yes

- you can start to look at it, and you can start to give everybody an idea. And I think, you know, this individual city was looking at, "Hey, we have a historic downtown, and I just kinda wanna know how everybody else's historic downtowns are performing," right? That's kinda what we're looking at. So, um, I was like: Yeah, I, I'll nerd out with you and go look at, you know, a couple of communities that I would consider to be, you know, historic. So, you know, going through and looking at historic downtowns, uh, which I- we're gonna talk a little bit about kind of the historic downtowns, and then we're gonna talk a little bit about, like, what I would consider to be, like, your, you know, may- you know, a little, little more like business downtowns.

Okay. Like a CBD?

Yeah, like a CBD. Yeah.

Okay, in, in this particular example, we're talking about smaller town downtowns, right? Not like downtown Austin.

That's correct.

Yeah.

In this particular example, we're talking about smaller downtowns. Um, and from what I can find, the four or five that I've looked at so far, um-

Oh, you've, you've got data?

I've got data.

Okay.

Yeah.

I didn't realize you were doing some research.

Well, I, I actually told the city that I would reach back out to them and give them a synopsis, so-

Are you going to just make them listen to the podcast?

No, I'm not gonna make them listen to the podcast.

Okay.

But since I was doing the work, I thought, you know, why, why not, you know, why not throw this into the podcast, right, and have that conversation? So of those communities that I looked at, um, you know, looking at those kind of historic downtowns that they've got, uh, overall, they've actually performed a, a little, a little better than I expected. Uh, so you know, I... There's been some, you know, kind of interesting growth from a standpoint of those downtown areas. They've had kind of the same negative months, which has been interesting. Uh, so many of those downtown areas have seen, uh, since the start of the fiscal year, have seen two down negative months, uh, verse, uh, those that are years. And they are- it looks like the ones that I would consider to be more touristy towns, towns that are like, you know, VRBO, Airbnb, like, weekend getaways, seem to, to have, uh, a little more of a, a detrimental impact in the negative side. Whereas those downtowns that are historic downtowns outside of major metropolitan areas, uh, which would be more of like a Saturday night restaurant getaway-type spot, uh, are- tend to be okay, 4% to 5% up verse, you know, 2% to 10% down. Um, so that's, that's been interesting to me. So, you know, those things that-

How have these... How have these downtowns compared to their, like, power centers?

You know, I didn't look at that. I- that's, uh, that's interesting. So is, is the downtown, you know, historic core, how's that performing against the power centers?

Yeah, like, I have no idea which cities you looked at, but the one that I'm thinking of in my head is Weatherford, 'cause I'm familiar with it.

Okay.

They've got their historic downtown up on 180 and 51.

Mm-hmm.

And then about two miles south, right on 20, is their, like, major power center. There's, like, a Walmart. There's a Lowe's, Target, right? All of the, like, big boxes on the highway. Um, if you could think of those two, like, distinct regions in, in cities of probably that size, maybe more often than not, sort of on the periphery of a major urbanized area.

I think with those towns, I just looked at two of them real quick. Um, and I did not look at Weatherford since you said it out loud-

Okay.

... just wanna point that out. Um, I think with those, those two towns, uh, most power centers are down statewide, right? Most general retail sales are down, and that's what you're gonna find in your power centers. Grocery is up in most areas, right? General retail is down. And I think, you know, you could look at the market, stock market, right? You can look at the guidance being given from Best Buy, Kohl's-

Walmart, Target. Yeah

... Walmart, Target, all that. All their guidance right now is negative, right? So I don't think that's gonna shock anybody that we're seeing, you know, somewhat stagnant and negative numbers. Um, whereas, no, I re- I really would say from a downtown standpoint, it seems to me that, like, downtowns that are within a spitting distance of a metropolitan area, within 30 minutes or so of, of a major, uh, employment center, s- seem to be doing, uh, well. So, and downtowns that are a little further out or "touristy," quote, unquote, in a state, which there are lots of in Texas, uh, it's one of the best parts about the state of Texas in my opinion, you can always like, you know, grab a VRBO and go have yourself a little, you know, romantic retreat on the weekend, um, and lots of small towns. Uh, so DFW, you know, obviously is not super far from, you know, either going down towards the lakes in South Texas or going to... I had to get my South Texas comment in there. Or head, you know, headed to the Hill Country, whichever way you wanna go. Um, they seem to be-... stutter in just a little bit more. To conclude on this, downtowns are super finicky, right? Every downtown has, like, its own living, breathing culture, uh, that's adjusted to it. I- so it's very difficult to compare downtowns, right? Like, it's really, really hard to look at it. Um, but overall, the downtown areas actually seem more stable than your general retail power centers.

Right now.

I think that's the best comparison to look at right now. Yeah.

Yeah.

So Main Street is doing better than Wall Street.

Okay.

There you go.

So when you mentioned this topic, Patrick, um, one thing I thought might be worth talking about is how imp- important that downtown is.

Uh-huh.

Like, I would bet if you looked at just nominal revenue, most of those smaller downtowns are not generating as much as their power centers, right? They, they generate a lot of revenue. They take up a lot of space, but they generate a, a lot of revenue. But the one thing that I always think about, like, as I'm driving across the state, is every place looks the same, right? Like, our economic development efforts are so focused on bringing in the exact same, uh, businesses in the exact same format, and everything just looks the same.

Yeah.

The downtown is the differentiator.

I-

Like, okay, so, you know, maybe you feel like you need to have... maybe you need to have that power center with, you know, either whether it's a Walmart, or Target, or a Low- Lowe's or Home Depot, or, you know, we're gonna have to have these sort of secondary, uh, uh, stores that follow our anchors. We have to have these restaurants. You know, we're gonna get our Chili's and our Pluckers, and whatever else. Everyone has those. It's so boring.

So should we-

And your downtown is like your hidden gem of uniqueness and what your city is, and we just neglect it.

I, I mean, man, I just, I, I have to say this and give a huge shout-out. Granbury, Texas, has done an absolute tremendous job with their downtown. Um, they have fine dining, Two Fish Tacos. They have live music. They have a theater. I mean, it is tremendous what has gone on in, in Granbury. It, it is, it is a gem of a city. I jokingly call it the place where all city managers go to retire, 'cause- ... I, I feel like there are- I run into a retired city manager in Granbury all the time. But, um, it is such a sense of place. But in today's world, in Texas, you couldn't do that. Like, Granbury, when they built downtown, required everything to have Granbury stone on it, which is a very specific white chalk-type stone.

That's fine.

Right?

But that's j- that's sort of, uh... I mean, I get how that affects the public realm, but it is- it's just a piece of the puzzle that makes that place feel the way that it does.

Right.

Right? It doesn't ha- like, it could be brick, and it would still have that unique feel of a downtown versus a s- a cinder block or a tilt-wall, 200,000-square foot, you know, box store in a power center.

The river that they have adjacent to it, the city hall complex that they built, I mean, the generations of, the generations of leadership-

That park on the backside of the city hall is so cool when you walk in.

Dude, it's incredible. Uh, but the generations of leadership that it takes to build what they built there is just... it's wild. And they have power centers that are out-

Of course they do

... you know, off the 377 and, and some other areas, if you know that market well. They have a lot going on, but it is incredible. They, they don't- I mean, from an industry standpoint, right, they have some industry that's been driven by people who've moved there because of the environment that has been built, especially Covid. A lot of people moved there in, in the Covid side 'cause it's just such a dynamic little city. Their population is not huge.

It's not. But let me ask you a question. When you think of Granbury, do you think of the downtown, or do you think of the power center?

I think of downtown.

Now, think of another random city in your head. Do you think of the unique things, or does... Like, when you picture it, are you picturing the same stuff that is everywhere else?

Well, so I... You know, that's a really good question. Uh, so I went to Crowley today to, uh, they have one of their staff members who's leaving, and so, uh, who's been a good friend of ours, uh, Jack Thompson. Congratulations on getting the city manager job in La Grange. And so I was in La Grange today, or sorry, Crowley.

Crowley.

I was in Crowley today, and, um, you know, I think 10 years ago, and a lot of people probably still think this, if you think of Crowley, Texas, all you think about is just urban sprawl, right? Like, it's just, it is what it is. Man, their downtown redevelopment that they worked really hard on, I mean, you, you've, you and I have known Robert, the city manager there, for a long time. I mean, he's basically spent a, a generation at this point trying to bring that city to where it's at now. Man, their downtown development is awesome. Like, the plaza that they built, um, you know, the things that they had to do, and you knew they took a ton of heat trying to build all that, to give Crowley a sense of place, to not just be a postage stamp on the way to work, but to actually be a community on its own. Um, you know, they got it started. It's not done by any means, but they got it started. They have a walkable downtown space.

Well, it's a city that's never done.

Yeah, so I don't-

That, that... Hold on. That is such a wild thing that you just said.

What's that?

It's not done.

Yeah.

Do you... I, I, I wanna a- analyze the psychology of that statement.

Okay, go for it.

Okay. Do we ever think of these things as done?

No.

Do we really? Maybe we do.

Sad. I, I think that's a sad approach.

Oh, I maybe, I agree, but like, "Okay, we're built out. We've got our, we got our stuff here. We're done."... like, we're done with this development. What does it mean to be done with the development?

I mean-

And, and what is the tra- trajectory of a development if you build it and you're done with it? Can it go, uh, can it get better? Or can it- is it gonna stay the same, or is it gonna get worse?

Well, I think it could stay the same. Uh, look, I can- I think complacency is always, is always, uh, less, right? So stay the same to me is always loss. So, um-

Now, I, I wanna clarify, no one at Crowley said that they- that they're done, right? That was just you-

No, in fact, it-

... that was just a throwaway line that you said.

That was a throwaway line.

I'm just digging into the- into the throwaway line here.

In, in fact, Robert, when he was talking about the work that they had done together, he was talking about Jack specifically and the work that they've done together, and it's pretty special what they've done. Um, and they've got another great ACM, DCM over there, Laurie, who's taking over as city manager when, when Robert retires here in a little bit. But, um, Robert made the comment that, "There were, there were people before me, and there will be people after me, and it's the responsibility of those that come after all of us, and, uh, to continue that, to, to keep moving in that direction," right? Um, and I think that's the amazing thing about Granbury is that it's like it's never stopped.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, y- they, you know, they've got an old historic movie theater down there. They've got an old, um, you know, Granbury Live, which is a, you know, almost like a little mini opry, right? I mean, you get to see some pretty cool things in that town.

Yeah.

And, and it's just continued to get improved, uh, from that standpoint.

Uh, uh, and it's-

And it's not vehicle-centric. That's the crazy thing about their downtown. They have a parking area around the square, but really that's the secondary-

Once you get there, you can walk from place to place.

Yeah. Once you get there, it's very, it's very walkable. So it's kind of... It's, you know, whereas, uh, I would say Weatherford, which is right down the road, and Weatherford's done a tremendous job with their downtown, and they continue to throw, uh, what I would consider pocket projects. And they're- so instead of going and spending $30 million and trying to do some crazy redevelopment project, Weatherford's, you know, doing small projects here and there and done a really good job with it, and allowed some of the residential houses right off of downtown to be converted to commercial.

Yeah. It's the Jane Jacobs approach.

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's worked.

Yeah.

And, and they're doing, they're doing a really good job on it. Um, funny enough, I think internally, um, or politically, I think, would be the better... Not internally, but politically, I think they still focus on the big wins out on the interstate, right? And I think the point you're trying to make, and it's a good point, is what do you actually recognize when you talk about Weatherford, Texas?

Right.

You recognize-

If you were to talk about a city like Weatherford, would you want to think about the power center on 20, or would you want to think about the downtown? Like, if you worked for the city, if you live in the city-

Right

... what would you want people from outside the city to picture in their head when they hear the name?

Which you can... So the, the square, right, and the courthouse. The courthouse is, is one of the prettiest courthouses in Texas. It's gorgeous, right?

It's much better than the, like, castle with turrets that we saw the other day.

Well, let's not call out a county courthouse.

That was wild.

That wasn't very-

I know. I didn't say who it was, but it was wild, though.

So-

It's like medieval England drive-thru.

Um, so so- somebody is gonna send us an email and be like, "I figured out where you went."

"That's my courthouse!"

Yeah. They're gonna be like, "I tracked all the different things you talked about, and we figured out where you went." But, I mean, you know, honest- honestly, there's truth on that. Um, like, you can't... It's, it's hard to safely walk to the courthouse because of the way the traffic circle in Weatherford works, right?

Yeah. Thanks, TxDOT.

Yeah. So, um, and, and those are... That's one of those things about, you know, we're just- we were very car-centric when... You know, that was even, that was, like, a '90s project, right? That wasn't even, like, an '80s-style project. That was, like, 1990s, early 2000s, and, you know, like, the walls, the, the famous walls that get knocked over on the square were, were installed back in the early 2000s, and so they've done some stuff there. But overall, they've actually made some progress. They've tightened up streets, they've changed the way the parking lots work, and it's slowed traffic down, even though it's still a state highway coming through the middle of it. Um, and they've done it without having to reroute an entire state highway, which was always kind of the thought, that they would have to do that to revitalize downtown, and they've been able to revitalize downtown with the state highway still going through it, which is impressive. It does still take a little too much of a car to get around there, right? If you wanna go from one side of the square to the other, I'm not sure playing Frogger across the highway is the way to do it. But, um, you know, but they've, they've been able to kinda create these, like, mini economies on each segment of the square. So one segment has, like, attorneys and title companies and things like that, like professional services, and then one side of the square has, like, restaurants and-

Has my cigar shop.

... That's your cigar shop, yes.

Yeah.

Uh, and, you know, some other things. And so they've kinda created, like, these little pods, and they've done pretty well with that, and they've brought a lot of employment to that downtown area as well. It's been pretty impressive, uh, especially because they started with something that was very difficult. Kinda like Crowley, started with something that was just a drive-through. Um, and so, um... You know, but I, I think places like a Fredericksburg, right, or a, uh, you know, a Granbury, uh, or a Georgetown, or some of these other folks, like, they start with something that is much more dynamic and much more historical and, and move into that. Another one that we don't really talk about as an episo- or not an episode of, but, uh, Nacogdoches.

Nacogdoches.

Yeah, Nacogdoches is a, is another cool little downtown. Uh, and, you know, the question is, do you have to have... What do you have to do as a city manager to be able to build things like that? Like, do you have to be-

You don't have to, you have- you don't have to do anything. We used to build things like that. All those places are from 120 years ago.

Yeah, but to keep it going, like-

You have to not divert all of your resources elsewhere.

Fair. But don't you need to continue-

Like, that's how you have to start it

... to get private inve- don't you continue have to get private investment in those areas, though?

You do, but when-

So don't you have to be-

Your attention is-

... an evangelical downtown?

Oh, yes, absol- I mean, y- you're the salesperson here.

Yeah.

Right?

Correct.

... so I think you know quite well how, how much you have to evangelize it. You have to find the things that make it special, and then highlight those things, and make it seem like it's way better than it is so that you can attract investment and actually make it realize its potential.

So-

It's really hard to do that if all of your attention is focused on the highway.

I would agree. I would agree with that. Uh-

And focus on a development pattern that we- not to, like, harp again on the power centers, 'cause there's a, there's a place for them, and there's obviously a market for them, but when we build them, we're done with them.

But do you think remote-

Like, what a, what a boring way to, like, run a city is to build a bunch of stuff that we just kind of say, "All right, we're done with this. Let's move on to the next one." Like, we should be looking for options in places where we can continually improve-

But-

... and a, and a type of place that can continually get better.

But do you think remote sales actually creates a better niche for downtowns?

For downtowns? Absolutely.

Yeah, me too. Like, I, I, I think, I think Main Street would-

You, you can, you will be able-

claim that Wall Street took advantage of them in that. Like, the closing of the bookstore, right? Like, the Amazon-

Mm-hmm

... taking over the Barnes & Nobles, right? I think they would claim that's the case.

You will be able to put your Walmarts, and your Targets, and your Home Depots, and your Lowe's, you'll be able to put them way out in the middle of nowhere because they're gonna be mostly just, like, delivery traffic.

Yeah.

We're not gonna actually go to those stores. Like, they're gonna build concepts that have smaller footprints, because more and more of the shopping that occurs there is gonna happen online.

Well, it's a lifestyle center, right? Like, your downtown should be the lifestyle center.

Yeah.

Like, it should be, it should be-

The, the beauty of downtowns as a lifestyle center versus the sort of artificial lifestyle centers that we try to create, is that the, the uniqueness and the, the incremental growth of those downtowns give it an actual sense of place, and not just, like, this sort of artificial facade that we, we built this huge lifestyle center-

Yeah

... now you should come here and, and enjoy it.

It's-

I'm thinking of a handful of them that I don't... I won't mention, but-

Yeah, I, I, you know... And, and some of those are gonna be, you know, sprawl communities that never had downtowns, right? They just became cities in the middle of nowhere over time, and so they're gonna have to create some type of-

True, but Hudson Oaks never had, like, a downtown, but the big plan that we-

Right

... put together was to essentially create one.

And I wouldn't say that... I don't think that plan is dead, right?

No, I'm, I'm-

Yeah, they've acquired significant property to make that happen at some point. The question is just, when does the investment trigger get pulled on it? So securing land is... And finding private owners to secure that land, uh, when you don't have public investment funds to do it with, um, is, is very, very difficult to do. But I mean, when I was in the city of Bryan, I mean, I felt like we... I, I'd have to go back and check the numbers, but when we redeveloped downtown Bryan, I felt like the city owned, like, half of downtown by the time the redevelopment started. 'Cause they had to go in and just buy things up to clean it up, right? Now, downtown Bryan, I would say, is one of the prettiest downtown areas in the state of Texas. Very pretty. So, uh, next-

I need to go down there. I'll go to Bryan. I'll stay out of College Station.

You. The LaSalle Hotel. The LaSalle Hotel was bought by the city of Bryan and redone, and now I think it's technically like a Magnolia Hotel, if I remember. But, um-

I feel like Greenville did that, too. South Carolina, I feel like they bought a hotel, and then-

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me

... flipped it. I can't remember for sure.

Yeah, but, uh, I, I mean, I, I, I do think, I think the... Downtowns are at, like, a very important part of, of who we are, and we can't really lose track of that as a community. And it does, I, I... It does strongly take an evangelical-style leader, whether that's your economic development, downtown director. Um, I mean, I, I'll just tell you from experience, because I live here and I go to some of their events, but, you know, downtown Waterford has been significantly transformed by the fact that they hired a, a downtown director who's, you know, very good. She's very good. So, you know, putting on events, and showcasing businesses, and having a social media following, and having an IG following, and all those different types of things that you have to have in today's world are extremely important. Uh-

Is it no longer called Insta?

Uh, I don't think we... I think we call it the Gram-

I don't know

... or IG.

I don't I don't-

Yeah.

I doubt it's called the Gram.

Yeah. I call it Insta.

I've, I've never been a, an Instagram user, so I don't know-

Are you making fun of me, like, five years ago, calling it Insta?

That's what a lot of people were calling it. It's hard, though, because as you get older, you're always on the tail end of those trends.

Okay.

So by the time it gets to you now, like at our age, it's already, like, washed through the younger kids.

I will ask the high school principal what the correct per- term-

Okay

... is now, and she'll, she'll let me know, and, and I'll let you I'll bring it back.

Please do. Follow up next time.

Yeah. Um, you know about rizz?

I do know about rizz.

Okay.

I'm full of rizz.

Yeah. Wow. That was the most dad statement you could make. That was, that was bad. Um, yeah, I, I learn all about the new terminology. Usually, the, like, the first or second week of school, uh, at the dinner table, we'll go through all the new terms, both from the high school level, and the, uh, junior high, and the elementary, 'cause we have all three now in our family.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, it's, uh, it's quite entertaining for me to learn all the new words. And then, as a, an annoying dad, I use them at every opportunity I can that's not appropriate, so...

What good is being a dad if you can't embarrass your kids?

Yeah, true. Speaking of embarrassing my kids, my kid had his first Valentine.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah. The, um, the little girl who asked him to be his Valentine, which, you know, I'm such a traditional male, I, I had a problem with that. He should ask her. But, you know, it is what it is. Um, the ... the, the little girl who asked him, super, super, super sweet little girl, uh, wrote him a note, George, uh, Strait style. No, it'd be Tim McGraw, right? Check yes or no, it was Tim McGraw?

I believe so.

Okay.

Uh, give me... You keep talking, I'll confirm.

"Will you be my Valentine? Please check yes or check no." That, uh, that was the letter that he got, so-

What, what did he check?

Yes. Yeah.

Check yes or no. George Strait.

Yay!

You were right the first time.

It was George.

Okay.

So did I just- I think I just lost my Texas card-

I think so

... by not knowing it was George.

And the fact that I, when you said-

I said George first.

You did, but when you said Tim McGraw, I literally couldn't hear it, except in Tim McGraw's voice.

Maybe Tim sings it louder.

That was the wildest thing.

Yeah. Okay, well, I don't know. That was a very popular song when we were in-

Yeah

... I'd say, like, junior high, right? It'd be in junior high.

It came out in '95.

Yeah, so that's like elementary.

I think you're a year behind me, so you would've graduate- had gotten into sixth grade in the '94, '95 school year.

Wow! The fact that you can do that math in your head is still impressive. I'm getting old. I need to go put my readers on right now.

Barely. Make sure you have your cane over there in the corner for when you get up.

I'll tell you what, with the pretty pictures that my wife put on the wall in my office, if anybody's been on Zoom calls with me, you can tell I had nothing to do with these, but...

Uh, I had nothing to do with these, but I did put them up. They are-

What are they?

... weird Star Wars, weird Star Wars characters, like-

Just-

... in suits.

'Cause that surprises nobody.

Like, this is Yoda, Yoda in a suit.

Nice.

Pretty sure that's Darth Vader.

Nice.

This is, this, this column is all of the, the dark side people.

Okay.

And then this column is all of the light side people.

In- interesting. Okay.

And then I did pick these out. I have eight, like, sort of retro-stylized, almost art deco-stylized posters of various cities.

I can't with you. So anyways, I'm done with my downtown conversation. Do you have anything else?

No.

Okay.

I'm good. I, I honestly didn't think that was gonna go for an hour, but hopefully it was worth it.

Yeah, you know, let's get into it. General idea-

I guess I'll find out for sure once I start editing-

Yeah, probably so

... if it was any good.

Probably so. Yep. So, um, all right, that's all I've got, man. What do you- what else you got?

Cool.

We have anything else to talk about?

I think we should probably cut it short here.

Okay.

Well, not even short. I think we should cut it long.

Okay, cut it.